Pre-noting Class D transit requests
Avoid imitations
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Pre-noting Class D transit requests
Anyone else noticed this?
See Y095/2017.
NATS | AIS - Home
Yes, only a trial at this stage but:
Is this a pre-cursor for a future requirement for a full flight plan for Class D transits?
Will it give ATC the option to refuse a crossing in advance, where an "ad-hoc" crossing request by RT might not have been refused?
How are RW operating from remote locations where there is no internet connection and (as is by no means unusual), the pax turn up at non-specified times, expected to fit in with this?
See Y095/2017.
NATS | AIS - Home
Yes, only a trial at this stage but:
Is this a pre-cursor for a future requirement for a full flight plan for Class D transits?
Will it give ATC the option to refuse a crossing in advance, where an "ad-hoc" crossing request by RT might not have been refused?
How are RW operating from remote locations where there is no internet connection and (as is by no means unusual), the pax turn up at non-specified times, expected to fit in with this?
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From a source in NATS, it is to help them during the transition to electronic strips. At the moment you free call and the controller writes a VFR transit strip out and issues a clearance based on what you want to do.
When E strips start this month the controllers will be doing a lot of on the job training alongside their simulator details. The app is to help them in a very complex change process. The creation of an E strip for a VFR transit is actually quite complex and takes them from their priority task. If you use the app your strip will be ready and you shouldn’t get any delays.
When East Midlands went the electronic route they NOTAMed no transits due to the training. Now transits are no problem.
When you book into Luton, Stansted and I believe Gatwick, the first the radar controller knows about you is your initial inbound call. For some reason there is a huge disconnect between the airports and the radar controllers in Swanwick. You book with your handling agent, they book the airport and the airports don’t tell TC Ops about you.
Until the E system is running properly and safely expect delays unless TC know about you. I was told that to create a VFR transit strip takes a dip into at least 3 sub menus all in different places and several minutes. At the same time controlling a bunch of airliners into the right sequence.
It is a huge change at Swanwick, but given time and practise you won’t notice the difference, however for a few months the radar controllers are going to be working bloody hard.
I’d be interested to hear what the experience of the East Mids controllers was, but the no transits notam was in place for quite a while.
SND
When E strips start this month the controllers will be doing a lot of on the job training alongside their simulator details. The app is to help them in a very complex change process. The creation of an E strip for a VFR transit is actually quite complex and takes them from their priority task. If you use the app your strip will be ready and you shouldn’t get any delays.
When East Midlands went the electronic route they NOTAMed no transits due to the training. Now transits are no problem.
When you book into Luton, Stansted and I believe Gatwick, the first the radar controller knows about you is your initial inbound call. For some reason there is a huge disconnect between the airports and the radar controllers in Swanwick. You book with your handling agent, they book the airport and the airports don’t tell TC Ops about you.
Until the E system is running properly and safely expect delays unless TC know about you. I was told that to create a VFR transit strip takes a dip into at least 3 sub menus all in different places and several minutes. At the same time controlling a bunch of airliners into the right sequence.
It is a huge change at Swanwick, but given time and practise you won’t notice the difference, however for a few months the radar controllers are going to be working bloody hard.
I’d be interested to hear what the experience of the East Mids controllers was, but the no transits notam was in place for quite a while.
SND
Avoid imitations
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
SND, So any clue to whether or not is this a requirement for routing into the LHR CTR to EGLW?
I note that the "abbreviated flight plan" will be discarded if not used. How long after the notified time, I wonder. I note that the accuracy should be +/- 15 minutes of the ETA - this is far too tight for a VFR flight plan where the actual departure time is very often subject to the vagaries of "actual passengers turning up time".
All very well for those with a manned ops department, not practical for those of us without.
I note that the "abbreviated flight plan" will be discarded if not used. How long after the notified time, I wonder. I note that the accuracy should be +/- 15 minutes of the ETA - this is far too tight for a VFR flight plan where the actual departure time is very often subject to the vagaries of "actual passengers turning up time".
All very well for those with a manned ops department, not practical for those of us without.
Very many thanks Shy - well-spotted. What's a handling agent?
...so the system is being designed to fail before it's even introduced? Sounds to me like an agency didn't take a look at the daily tasks faced by ATCUs with the aim of producing a suitable workaround. Perhaps they used a programmer/ consultancy to design it, rather than a controller who's actually going to have to make it work. That, or they're trying to turn Class D into the Class A of old only more so.
Our VFR low-level, national-infrastructure (another Class D-related term...) reactive ops all around the S, SW and middle of the UK frequently require us to carry out tasks within, and short-notice transits through, Class D. Fortunately for us we don't have to spend too much time in the SE where this trial will be conducted. I shall follow this one with interest.
The creation of an E strip for a VFR transit is actually quite complex
..to create a VFR transit strip takes a dip into at least 3 sub menus all in different places and several minutes..
Our VFR low-level, national-infrastructure (another Class D-related term...) reactive ops all around the S, SW and middle of the UK frequently require us to carry out tasks within, and short-notice transits through, Class D. Fortunately for us we don't have to spend too much time in the SE where this trial will be conducted. I shall follow this one with interest.
Last edited by Thud_and_Blunder; 1st Jan 2018 at 21:16. Reason: added comment about our work in and through Class D
Looks like making everyone's jobs (for a simple task) harder just for the sake of digitisation............
Anyone tried to use this?
My quick sample identified that it requires the callsign but it has to be the a/c registration - that will possibly create confusion etc. not just for the police/SAR/HEMS/corporate/pipeline/etc. but also the ATC controller who is aware of G-$$$$ but then hears Police/Helimed etc.
You also have to select the zone that you require to transit - then ADD it before being allowed to submit.
My quick sample identified that it requires the callsign but it has to be the a/c registration - that will possibly create confusion etc. not just for the police/SAR/HEMS/corporate/pipeline/etc. but also the ATC controller who is aware of G-$$$$ but then hears Police/Helimed etc.
You also have to select the zone that you require to transit - then ADD it before being allowed to submit.
And even if you do file electronically - it doesn't give you any advantage
perhaps the last sentence is the only advantage - less RT.
ATC will acknowledge the transmission and consider the request. If possible, and depending on traffic, workload etc, an ATC
clearance or alternative clearance will be then provided, which if acceptable to the pilot shall be read back in full.
3.10 The aircraft must remain outside any CAS until such time as ATC have provided a clearance and it has been acknowledged and
read back by the pilot.
3.11 Whilst there remains no guarantee that a suitable ATC clearance can be provided on every occasion that a request is
made, the pre-notification of Abbreviated Flight Plan details should enable some measure of pre-planning by ATC.
Having flight details available in advance should also significantly reduce the amount of RTF required to facilitate such
requests.
clearance or alternative clearance will be then provided, which if acceptable to the pilot shall be read back in full.
3.10 The aircraft must remain outside any CAS until such time as ATC have provided a clearance and it has been acknowledged and
read back by the pilot.
3.11 Whilst there remains no guarantee that a suitable ATC clearance can be provided on every occasion that a request is
made, the pre-notification of Abbreviated Flight Plan details should enable some measure of pre-planning by ATC.
Having flight details available in advance should also significantly reduce the amount of RTF required to facilitate such
requests.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good spot Shy. But this is just nuts. So many points:
The amount of admin time to request a Class D transit on line is quite significant - I'd guess 5 mins. And that's a lot. And as you say, many of us don't have ops departments.
Many of us don't always have ready on line access to do this. The 3 or 4G coverage is far from good when away from wifi. Then what?
What routes you get are clearly influenced by other traffic, so you may well get another to that requested.
A lot of flights cannot be timed to even within 15 mins - we go when we're ready, we're not scheduled flights.
This just seems sure to create more admin work overall, given the inevitable lack of precision of routes and timing, thus usually ATC will have to rely on the initial radio call info anyway to approve and route.
If pre requested transits don't have to be cancelled and just fall away if not used, how's that going to help with accurate co-ordination of busy airspace? Requests might be refused because someone else has pre requested it - and never shows.
ATC controllers also sensibly take into consideration the apparent competence of the pilot from his RT before issuing clearances.
And that's just a start!
The amount of admin time to request a Class D transit on line is quite significant - I'd guess 5 mins. And that's a lot. And as you say, many of us don't have ops departments.
Many of us don't always have ready on line access to do this. The 3 or 4G coverage is far from good when away from wifi. Then what?
What routes you get are clearly influenced by other traffic, so you may well get another to that requested.
A lot of flights cannot be timed to even within 15 mins - we go when we're ready, we're not scheduled flights.
This just seems sure to create more admin work overall, given the inevitable lack of precision of routes and timing, thus usually ATC will have to rely on the initial radio call info anyway to approve and route.
If pre requested transits don't have to be cancelled and just fall away if not used, how's that going to help with accurate co-ordination of busy airspace? Requests might be refused because someone else has pre requested it - and never shows.
ATC controllers also sensibly take into consideration the apparent competence of the pilot from his RT before issuing clearances.
And that's just a start!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Out on the bike in Northumberland
Posts: 578
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moving to EFPS is a big change, and yes creating a strip for a free calling aircraft, be it a transit or arrival is more complex than just scribbling on a paper strip. Even now 3 years on it takes time and concentration. That said the TC controllers will get the hang of it, and going from our experience a period of adjustment will be needed. The trial sounds interesting, but not sure how effective it will be, and not sure if it is planned to be rolled out to non NATS units, we do get the odd VFR plan drop into our displays so guess the system has the ability to deal with them.
Avoid imitations
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Having put more thought into this, I worry that it will cause more pilots to route round Class D, rather than bother to "advance book" a transit, especially when people have been refused a crossing request, which will almost undoubtedly happen (human nature being what it us). There are a number of choke points in the London area and this will possibly make them even busier. Farnborough LARS often struggle to cope as it is due to controller workload, especially at weekends. Flight safety compromised in the name of progress?
Avoid imitations
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shy;
I understand PPR was high on the agenda, but was elbowed very early by CAA and others.
Your question about routing through the TMA to LGW is bloody valid. I don't know the answer. I'll see what I can find out and I'll post it here. Also anybody who wants to PM me with feedback is very welcome to and I'll make sure it gets passed on.
Just for info I was on a trip this morning that involved a Luton crossing. P2 stuck the relevant bits into the NATS system while we were at the pick up site, I got a lovely e-mail thanking me and telling me they had it, but this in no way constituted a clearance ETC. When we called Luton they'd never heard of us. Call me old fashioned, but progress seems to be sending us back a fair bit on this one!
SND
I understand PPR was high on the agenda, but was elbowed very early by CAA and others.
Your question about routing through the TMA to LGW is bloody valid. I don't know the answer. I'll see what I can find out and I'll post it here. Also anybody who wants to PM me with feedback is very welcome to and I'll make sure it gets passed on.
Just for info I was on a trip this morning that involved a Luton crossing. P2 stuck the relevant bits into the NATS system while we were at the pick up site, I got a lovely e-mail thanking me and telling me they had it, but this in no way constituted a clearance ETC. When we called Luton they'd never heard of us. Call me old fashioned, but progress seems to be sending us back a fair bit on this one!
SND
Agreed...from the US perspective, this seems so un-neccessary. There's almost nowhere in the US that one can't transit VFR on a whim, save the DC FRZ.
Avoid imitations
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Shy;
Just for info I was on a trip this morning that involved a Luton crossing. P2 stuck the relevant bits into the NATS system while we were at the pick up site, I got a lovely e-mail thanking me and telling me they had it, but this in no way constituted a clearance ETC. When we called Luton they'd never heard of us. Call me old fashioned, but progress seems to be sending us back a fair bit on this one!
SND
Just for info I was on a trip this morning that involved a Luton crossing. P2 stuck the relevant bits into the NATS system while we were at the pick up site, I got a lovely e-mail thanking me and telling me they had it, but this in no way constituted a clearance ETC. When we called Luton they'd never heard of us. Call me old fashioned, but progress seems to be sending us back a fair bit on this one!
SND
A similar thing happened to me when we first had to phone up the LTC Group Supervisor to obtain a clearance to land in the "inner area" of the LHR CTR. I phoned as required, only to be given quite short shrift by the controller at the other end of the phone. He seemed quite angry, asked me why on earth I was phoning him and wanted to know who had given me their phone number! I quoted the AIC number and he went very quiet - I don't think he was aware of it!
Avoid imitations
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Same in UK....or WAS! We seem to be suffering from creeping legislation all the time. All we RW pilots want to do is get people efficiently from A to B - it's not rocket science!
This is the thin end of a very large wedge - the AIC quotes some of the benefits as :
There is only one way to action the above - you'll get an email back saying "no, go away"
Enable better planning of transit flights through Class D airspace;
Reduce the RTF loading when requests are made;
Reduce ATC workload and therefore enable more efficient use of the airspace.
Reduce the RTF loading when requests are made;
Reduce ATC workload and therefore enable more efficient use of the airspace.
Another concern is that - like may have happened over the Thames less than a handful of years ago - pilots will try to interact with walk-on comms devices in flight to the detriment of their other duties. An example of an ATC requirement leading to a reduction in flight safety.
I can think of a particular watch supervisor at a particular airport who must be rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of using this one against GA.
I can think of a particular watch supervisor at a particular airport who must be rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of using this one against GA.
I can think of a particular watch supervisor at a particular airport who must be rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of using this one against GA
Of course, there are many great units but it's embarrassing when compared to the USA and Canada. Over the last few years I've found the professionalism deteriorating rapidly. It certainly has changed.
Finally, as 3 out of 4 of my VFR flight plans never make it to a controllers desk I don't expect this to work.