Robinson helicopters added to safety watchlist
Nooby - I would hope that someone with that amount of experience could handle a Robby well but more importantly know where to avoid turbulence in the mountains and how to deal with it if encountered.
If it isn't an issue, why have DoC NZ taken action following a series of incidents???
R22 - goody for you, I suspect what you call getting the sh*t kicked out of you in turbulence probably isn't very high on the scale.
If it isn't an issue, why have DoC NZ taken action following a series of incidents???
R22 - goody for you, I suspect what you call getting the sh*t kicked out of you in turbulence probably isn't very high on the scale.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Nooby - I would hope that someone with that amount of experience could handle a Robby well but more importantly know where to avoid turbulence in the mountains and how to deal with it if encountered.
If it isn't an issue, why have DoC NZ taken action following a series of incidents???
R22 - goody for you, I suspect what you call getting the sh*t kicked out of you in turbulence probably isn't very high on the scale.
If it isn't an issue, why have DoC NZ taken action following a series of incidents???
R22 - goody for you, I suspect what you call getting the sh*t kicked out of you in turbulence probably isn't very high on the scale.
Yeah, and mine is bigger than yours.
Are there any objective metrics for turbulence, which are commonly used? (Leaving aside for a moment the question how to practically measure and/or record them in light singles ...)
Are there any objective metrics for turbulence, which are commonly used? (Leaving aside for a moment the question how to practically measure and/or record them in light singles ...)
How many other aircraft have inflight breakups, particularly with the tail found far behind the rest of wreckage?
Robbies on average, despite their popularity, account for only a third of hours flown.
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The fact is that Robby's have limits. You can either accept those limits and have a happy career, or you can ignore them and die!
There was a guy who used to fly his Robby into the clouds a lot, and then post videos on youtube of his awesomeness. Then he died flying his Robby into the clouds!
I don't know why Kiwi's have such a problem with mast bumping their Robbys, maybe their turbulence is different than everyone else's
Whatever it is, Kiwis and Robbys just don't mix, and they should probably just stop flying them!
There was a guy who used to fly his Robby into the clouds a lot, and then post videos on youtube of his awesomeness. Then he died flying his Robby into the clouds!
I don't know why Kiwi's have such a problem with mast bumping their Robbys, maybe their turbulence is different than everyone else's
Whatever it is, Kiwis and Robbys just don't mix, and they should probably just stop flying them!
Every aircraft has limits. They are usually quite well documented and not determined by how well or badly you play rugby.
The DOC hasn't limited their choice of aircraft to any other type. Robinson seem to believe their aircraft are fine but it's clearly kiwi pilots, yet they seem to manage with the other aircraft manufacturers.
The DOC hasn't limited their choice of aircraft to any other type. Robinson seem to believe their aircraft are fine but it's clearly kiwi pilots, yet they seem to manage with the other aircraft manufacturers.
Objective metrics is always a challenge as it requires a common unit of measurement.
Not a good place to be with a Robinson rotor head.
The fact is that Robby's have limits. You can either accept those limits and have a happy career, or you can ignore them and die
As you come to acknowledge your own limitations - as I suspect many of us older types here have - it is reasonable to question those of the machine as well rather than assuming that everyone who hasn't crashed in a Robbie is awesome and those that have, brought it on themselves.
R22butters, leave it alone on this forum, you’ll only catch grief. I paid my way from the civilian side and learned, instructed, and flew lucrative contracts on the 22. Retired flying Super Pumas and AW139. Would never have happened without a cheap entry, and side-by-side with other professionals found zero difference compared to the crabs of the world that silver-spooned up through the military.
Now my kiwi friends tell me that the reason for the disasterous record in NZ is from a disfunctional regulatory regime. Outside NZ I’ve found their pilots as good as any and better than most. Perhaps KiwiNed can comment on the quality of regulatory oversight in NZ, and its effect on the accident rate.
Now my kiwi friends tell me that the reason for the disasterous record in NZ is from a disfunctional regulatory regime. Outside NZ I’ve found their pilots as good as any and better than most. Perhaps KiwiNed can comment on the quality of regulatory oversight in NZ, and its effect on the accident rate.
crabs of the world that silver-spooned up through the military
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Turbulence that significantly reduces the G below 1 or leaves you feeling light in your seat would be a good place to start.
Not a good place to be with a Robinson rotor head.
But only the Robbie has had them added to (reduced speed envelope) following a series of accidents and a great deal of pressure from concerned aviators.
As you come to acknowledge your own limitations - as I suspect many of us older types here have - it is reasonable to question those of the machine as well rather than assuming that everyone who hasn't crashed in a Robbie is awesome and those that have, brought it on themselves.
Not a good place to be with a Robinson rotor head.
But only the Robbie has had them added to (reduced speed envelope) following a series of accidents and a great deal of pressure from concerned aviators.
As you come to acknowledge your own limitations - as I suspect many of us older types here have - it is reasonable to question those of the machine as well rather than assuming that everyone who hasn't crashed in a Robbie is awesome and those that have, brought it on themselves.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
that is a pretty pathetic remark. You paid for your position - I earned mine.
Crab can be outspoken at times....Lord knows he and I have crossed Swords often but in this case I choose to stand with my ally and brother-in-arms!
There is a huge difference between buying a pair of wings and earning them after they are pinned on your tunic!
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The big problem is picking the turbulence. Sometimes it will kick the s*#t out of you earlier than you thought you were going to get it, and sometimes you get none when you are sure you should get some....
Some of the Robbys that have gone down in NZ have been in the lee of the hills with 30-40 kts coming through them, i wouldn't try that in a JR or Huey, so those ones probably did mast bump, but you can't blame the machine. You hear about the aircraft gone missing, look at the weather and ask WTF were they doing in that aircraft, in that location!!
The ones that are a worry, are when they have mast bumped in what should be very calm air. There are at least three in NZ that the weather was virtually calm and they are saying it was turbulence... One particular other helicopters were in the area prior to the accident no wind, and then aircraft out searching within 20 min, no wind. Where do you get turbulence in those cases??
Some of the Robbys that have gone down in NZ have been in the lee of the hills with 30-40 kts coming through them, i wouldn't try that in a JR or Huey, so those ones probably did mast bump, but you can't blame the machine. You hear about the aircraft gone missing, look at the weather and ask WTF were they doing in that aircraft, in that location!!
The ones that are a worry, are when they have mast bumped in what should be very calm air. There are at least three in NZ that the weather was virtually calm and they are saying it was turbulence... One particular other helicopters were in the area prior to the accident no wind, and then aircraft out searching within 20 min, no wind. Where do you get turbulence in those cases??
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I am with Crab too. Passing military selection and the spending nearly 200 hours training under intense scrutiny, always only 5 hours away from review and the chop, is a mission.
Long term survival in this business requires some manipulation involving the types you fly, the organisations you fly for and the scope of the missions you do. After tha, Lady Luck and fate are waiting in the wings.
Having said that let's not trash Butters. His message is really valid, know the limits and apply them. That is all he is saying. As to the Robbie, don't know enough about the. flew an R44 once and was mildly alarmed that the governor is not in parallel to the throttle control and felt weird as I moved the collective and the throttle turned in my hand.
Good luck to all the Robbie jockeys. Follow Butters advice. It's surely a good place to start.
Long term survival in this business requires some manipulation involving the types you fly, the organisations you fly for and the scope of the missions you do. After tha, Lady Luck and fate are waiting in the wings.
Having said that let's not trash Butters. His message is really valid, know the limits and apply them. That is all he is saying. As to the Robbie, don't know enough about the. flew an R44 once and was mildly alarmed that the governor is not in parallel to the throttle control and felt weird as I moved the collective and the throttle turned in my hand.
Good luck to all the Robbie jockeys. Follow Butters advice. It's surely a good place to start.
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If only everyone could train on and then jump into a turbine machine from day one.
The fact is that this is not the case, just like how not everyone can go the mil path for various reasons.
To those whom believe pilots haven't earnt their wings because they "paid" for it, that is a disgraceful view. We're all in it for the same reason, hard work is required on both sides of the fence.
The fact is that this is not the case, just like how not everyone can go the mil path for various reasons.
To those whom believe pilots haven't earnt their wings because they "paid" for it, that is a disgraceful view. We're all in it for the same reason, hard work is required on both sides of the fence.
To those whom believe pilots haven't earnt their wings because they "paid" for it, that is a disgraceful view. We're all in it for the same reason, hard work is required on both sides of the fence.
I quite agree that whichever route you take involves hard work - the insinuation that mil training is somehow a gift is an insult to all those who serve their country rather than just themselves.
PS - the support is gratefully accepted on behalf of all mil aviators.
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My very first 3 hours in an R22 (under supervision) were in very challenging conditions of wind 25 knots gusting to 30-35 knots. My 4th hour on type was in light and variable conditions and I remember thinking what a false sense of security it was because it was incredibly easy to fly.
Later I would solo in similar challenging conditions and after pulling take-off power it felt like the thing was gonna fall apart in flight so I reduced the collective as there was enough wind providing translational lift anyway, albeit it was quite a bumpy take-off. A few years later I would see someone taxying one at Bankstown Airport under similar windy circumstances and doing it very well - it can be done. I believe these operating conditions are now banned for an R22, probably because the fair weather flyers get themselves caught out.
It isn't the mast that's the Robbi's weakness, it's the lack of weight (and possibly the narrow power band from the engine) that makes it unstable when circumstances become demanding.
As for the mil vs civvy argument, it takes courage to sign up your life to the military as there is no buying your way out of a situation you don't like. The mil pilots I know all flew planks before they were given their limited choice of career progression. Although I did think it novel that some AS350 pilots thought the rubber band set up on our "trainers" was silly until I explained to them that it also absorbs the vibrations from a reciprocating engine.
Later I would solo in similar challenging conditions and after pulling take-off power it felt like the thing was gonna fall apart in flight so I reduced the collective as there was enough wind providing translational lift anyway, albeit it was quite a bumpy take-off. A few years later I would see someone taxying one at Bankstown Airport under similar windy circumstances and doing it very well - it can be done. I believe these operating conditions are now banned for an R22, probably because the fair weather flyers get themselves caught out.
It isn't the mast that's the Robbi's weakness, it's the lack of weight (and possibly the narrow power band from the engine) that makes it unstable when circumstances become demanding.
As for the mil vs civvy argument, it takes courage to sign up your life to the military as there is no buying your way out of a situation you don't like. The mil pilots I know all flew planks before they were given their limited choice of career progression. Although I did think it novel that some AS350 pilots thought the rubber band set up on our "trainers" was silly until I explained to them that it also absorbs the vibrations from a reciprocating engine.
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My very first 3 hours in an R22 (under supervision) were in very challenging conditions of wind 25 knots gusting to 30-35 knots. My 4th hour on type was in light and variable conditions and I remember thinking what a false sense of security it was because it was incredibly easy to fly.
Later I would solo in similar challenging conditions and after pulling take-off power it felt like the thing was gonna fall apart in flight so I reduced the collective as there was enough wind providing translational lift anyway, albeit it was quite a bumpy take-off. A few years later I would see someone taxying one at Bankstown Airport under similar windy circumstances and doing it very well - it can be done. I believe these operating conditions are now banned for an R22, probably because the fair weather flyers get themselves caught out.
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Later I would solo in similar challenging conditions and after pulling take-off power it felt like the thing was gonna fall apart in flight so I reduced the collective as there was enough wind providing translational lift anyway, albeit it was quite a bumpy take-off. A few years later I would see someone taxying one at Bankstown Airport under similar windy circumstances and doing it very well - it can be done. I believe these operating conditions are now banned for an R22, probably because the fair weather flyers get themselves caught out.
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http://https://robinsonheli.com/wp-c.../r22_poh_2.pdf
The 22 is a lot of fun to fly, but please remember, its a Yugo, so don't drive it like a Ferrari.
Is the Robbie the only helicopter with design-related envelope limitations?
Originally Posted by [email protected]
The fact is that Robby's have limits. You can either accept those limits and have a happy career, or you can ignore them and die
Immediate action if required to reduce the feedback loads [stemming from temporary hydraulics failure]: Reduce the severity of the maneuver ...
In maximum power configuration, decrease collective pitch ... before initiating a turn...
In hover, avoid rotation faster than 6 sec per full rotation.
In maximum power configuration, decrease collective pitch ... before initiating a turn...
In hover, avoid rotation faster than 6 sec per full rotation.
It is interesting to see that while here you say only Robinson had to limit the flight envelope, you are the main contributor to the AS350 limitations related discussion in the "AS350" thread. Both in one day.
I guess what we see here is actually quite normal. I could think of different, specific limitations applying to respective other types of helicopter.