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Old 27th Nov 2016, 17:17   #21 (permalink)


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Drones could replace helicopters in a remodelling of NPAS:

Police Professional :: News :: Drones could replace helicopters in a remodelling of the National Police Air Service


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Old 1st Dec 2016, 13:57   #22 (permalink)
 
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Drones remotely deployed from control rooms!!!!!!!!!!

You would think the police would know the rules about drone operations by now.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 14:49   #23 (permalink)
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That's it then.....the Safety Officer is no more. Long live the safety officer. NPAS is now without a safety net, but no worries, they'll train a support staff member to do the job for £7/hour.

Let's see what a review of the situation uncovers.... My guess is a pay rise of atleast £10k to a more attractive £53+ to do the job. When will the cops ever learn.......
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:06   #24 (permalink)
 
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Anyone know what's going on with the NPAS plans for fixed wing? Seems to have gone quiet lately.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 21:09   #25 (permalink)
 
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Two new bases

Re post "Anyone know what's going on with the NPAS plans for fixed wing? Seems to have gone quiet lately."

PAN's December issue has some good features in it with a large article about NPAS and their two new bases. Bristol and DSA (Robin Hood Airport).
Work has started on the DSA plane hangar.
Police Aviation News - Latest News
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:07   #26 (permalink)
 
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Is it correct that the base closures are going ahead as planned and the fixed wing are going into storage until their hangar is finished late next year?

Surely they won't leave huge areas of the country without any cover for 6 months, will they?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 11:21   #27 (permalink)
 
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Cover until fixed wings come online

Re cover question:

Area of Scotland is 30,420 sq miles (78,789kms) and only has one police helicopter to cover the whole region.
Scotland Facts and Figures ? Scotland Info Guide

Area of Wales is 8,000 sq miles (20,782kms) and only has one police helicopter unless plans have changed?
Wales | wales.com

The rest of THE UK has 25 police helicopters to cover country at the last count I believe. Stand corrected if anyone else has up to date figures on the 902 fleet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...ce_Air_Service

Have NPAS ever published any figures which show the standby times for each base. (i.e. Hours not airborne during a 24 hour period, over a month/year?)

Last edited by Cabby; 5th Dec 2016 at 12:39.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 13:54   #28 (permalink)

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Quote:
Re cover question:

Area of Scotland is 30,420 sq miles (78,789kms) and only has one police helicopter ...

Area of Wales is 8,000 sq miles (20,782kms) and only has one police helicopter ...
Wales | wales.com

The rest of England has 25 police helicopters ...
The rest of England ....
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 14:34   #29 (permalink)

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Apart from the fact that Scotland decides what it gets up to policing wise and decided not to have anything to do with a national service, wouldn't it be better to look at population and where it's all at!

England 54,786,300
Scotland 5,373,000
Wales 3,063,456



http://tinyurl.com/jgfjdxl http://www.npas.police.uk
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Old 5th Dec 2016, 06:22   #30 (permalink)
 
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Drones launched from control rooms would need to be more akin to the sort of thing that gets sent around the world to kill people rather than the toys people generally envisage when drones are mentioned now. In that case, with drone operators employed instead of pilots, and current heli police personnel redeployed to other roles or observing from the control room, there are probably no significant cost savings to be had.

A model whereby cars equipped with a 'camera toy' in its boot, akin to the ARV, could perhaps work for local stuff where a heli (in particular the expensinve machines the tax payer is expected to fund in this country) is OTT, but currently the only available resource.

Wider ranging and more rural stuff perhaps still needs manned capability, although it would be interesting to see what the split of police missions is in terms of 'on the spot' camera jobs and moving ones. Presumably the concentration of bases around population centres tells it own story as to where police air response is most requested?
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Old 9th Dec 2016, 21:19   #31 (permalink)


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Just Culture?!

So, here we are TC. No Safety Manager = a no safety programme . When will management realise what a precious part of an aviation organisation this is? Rumour has it the new management style is "If you don't tow the line, you''ll be managed out". I fear this is the last we have seen of Just Culture. It would appear that it has exited with the Safety Manager. What a pile of CACH!
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 10:39   #32 (permalink)
 
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Not much I can add to the comprehensive review in PAN but to reiterate that the first P68R [presumably with its de-icing certified] is not due until the Spring so is expected to be the singleton at PAvCon in early June. There is plenty of spare hangar space at the airfield so pushing it into [say] the newly relocated Vulcan hangar for a month or two should not be a real problem.

I expect training to take up 1-2 months from [say] the April delivery so it will not be in real service until next summer.

Meanwhile the expected closures of Warton, Tesside and Wattisham will be in place by March..... Rumour has it that Warton and Teesside are already without aircraft and crews regularly anyway so its not exactly a trauma job.

The last two MD902 at Hurn and Carr Gate should be grounded before New Year dawns.

So I guess it is fair to say that one way and another there will be a massive unpoliced gap in aerial coverage along the eastern counties until at least next June.

Probably more important overall will be the results on this weeks meeting with the PCCs at which [unseen] plans have been put forward that might just see a modest expansion of NPAS into the future.

The fleet is gleamingly newly polished but beneath the paintwork of each 10,000 hour airframe is the base problem of the current fleet.

They were worth about £1M each .... half have had £1M spent on them in upgrades and each is now now still worth just about £1M...... [if you can get it] that sort of adds it all up really. They need an ongoing option to progressively acquire new airframes that will eventually give them a fleet that works as well as it might.

As someone who has delivered 24/7/365 policing on the ground over several years I think I might just add 'Since when has aerial policing DELIVERED 24/7/365 policing?'
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 12:57   #33 (permalink)
 
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Fuel and costs

Anyone know how much an NPAS equipped P68R fixed wing costs?
What are the direct operating costs compared to an EC135?

A mention of a UK unit reaching 10,000 hours on police work is mentioned in Wikipedia. How much money will those 10,000 hours cost in terms of money?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC135

Regarding the latest upgraded EC135's, if they have 10,000 hours on the airframe, how long do NPAS expect those a/c to last before it becomes too expensive to operate?
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Old 10th Dec 2016, 21:19   #34 (permalink)
 
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I am not aware of the claimed savings being offered between the P68R and the 135 as such information was apparently among the redacted sections of the documents I have seen. The usual claims made for fixed wing are that they might be one third of the price but there are so many variables. One saving of course is thay are two crew rather than three. No room for a third.

Most of the other questions lie in the how long is a peice of string category, difficult to quantify.

The ball park cost of a pre-NPAS unit was £1M per aircraft per year flying around 1,000 hours annually. So a 10,000 hour airframe might be first cost + £1M x10. That is much too simplistic.

As the older airframes, including G-YPOL, have already demonstrated 12,000 hours is no real problem and North Sea helicopters have flown way more than that so there might be time enough with the remanufactured airframes as long as none of them turn out to include the [inevitable?] rogue.
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 13:12   #35 (permalink)
 
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As someone who was involved in the development of Police Aviation since the mid 1980's, I remain very saddened by the reduction of effective air support available to the bobby on the beat since the creation of NPAS.
Like many others long before NPAS arrived I had been a strong supporter of a National Police Air Wing. But I had made the fatal mistake of looking at it from an operational viewpoint, better coverage, better training better standardisation etc etc. What I forgot was that in modern day policing Operational efficiency stood for nothing! All that mattered was the cost! Do it for tuppence if you can. Close bases, reduce the fleet, get rid of the enthusiastic thief catchers the only thing that matters is Political expediency etc etc .
But hey ho what does it matter? The rest of the service seems to be going down the tubes as well.
One bit of good news However is that my old unit Nr Bristol will be getting its new home! Combining its base and facilities with the local Air Ambulance. Both units operate the same type of A/C so potentially a better service for all concerned.
To those that knew me, I'm not dead yet! Getting a bit old and wrinkly but at nearly 72 I guess thats to be expected. Still active in my support for Police aviation though.

TF
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Old 12th Dec 2016, 16:38   #36 (permalink)
 
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SilsoeSid, Not understood!

TF
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Old 12th Dec 2016, 20:20   #37 (permalink)

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I'll rephrase it TF:
To make something clear so that assumptions aren't being made, I would just like to say that I have only ever posted under this username.
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Old 13th Dec 2016, 00:38   #38 (permalink)
 
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SOS, Thats fine by me!

History has taught me to always judge my fellow men by the quality of their posts, and my own judgement regarding the independence and unbiased approach of their stance!

TF
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 17:10   #39 (permalink)
 
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Have a Peaceful Christmas

Its been a long time now since our paths went in other directions but I wish the crews of all the Police - NPAS units a Safe and Peaceful Christmas. Especially those in my old unit at Filton Bristol.
TF
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Old 3rd Jan 2017, 15:49   #40 (permalink)
 
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Some of you may remember that back in 2014, under FOI, I asked each Force who was then a member of NPAS, what was their total budget for Air Support in the Financial Year prior to them joining NPAS, and what was their contribution to NPAS for the FY 2014-15. The results are below.

While most were paying less, others were paying more, with a few, D&C, Thames Valley, Hertfordshire, were paying considerably more, often for less hours. The total number of hours were down slightly, as was the cost per flying hour. Total national savings were only £3.4M.




In November I asked NPAS what each Force paid them in the FY 2015-16, and the number of hours flown for each. The results, along with what they were paying prior to joining NPAS, are below. NPAS also included The Met, City of London and British Transport, but as they hadn’t joined in 2014, I haven’t included them.




While the majority are still paying less(but strangely two are paying exactly the same as prior to NPAS), D&C, Thames Valley and Essex are still paying considerably more, but for considerably less hours.

The majority of Forces have seen their hours reduced, some by around 50%, but the majority have seen their costs per hour increase. Just look at poor old Cleveland. Also D&C(again), GMP, S Yorks, Staffs and Warwick.

Total national savings have increased slightly to £4.6M, but hours flown have plummeted, and how many of these are 25,30 or 40 minute transit times? Not just there, but back again. The savings in cost per flying hour that had been gained in 2013-14 have been wiped out, with an overall increase of £515.

I'm sure that there are other things to be taken into account, but, since the time before NPAS, we’ve lost all those aircraft and bases for a Service that spends most of it’s flying time in transit for a saving of around £4.5M a year.
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