Combining ATPL(H) skill test with issue of a MP type rating

[Peter PanPan]

I apologize in advance if this thread reproduces a topic that has already been discussed.

I searched the forum for this exact point but couldn't find anything.

Summary: I plan on "unfreezing" my ATPL(H) this Fall whilst combining an initial pilot type rating on a MP helicopter with the ATPL(H) skill test itself.

Upon requesting the due authorization from my Competent Authority, their response was that one may not combine those two events. According to them, one must already hold the type rating on the license prior to undertaking the ATPL(H) skill test.

I quoted the AMC1 FCL.520.A; FCL.520.H

ATPL SKILL TEST

The ATPL skill test may serve at the same time as a skill test for the issue of the licence and a proficiency check for the revalidation of the type rating for the aircraft used in the test and may be combined with the skill test for the issue of a MP type rating.

They still stubbornly insist that one may not combine these two events.

Any thoughts?

Thanks everyone in advance.

[GoodGrief]

On any check ride you're the pilot in command.
In order to act as PIC you need a valid type rating.

What your quoted text means is that you need a single pilot TR already and the ATP ride can be used to add same type as MP TR.

[Linda787]

Hi there, the day I did a multi engine, multi pilot IFR skill test, my authority (UK) did convert my CPL-H onto an ATPL-H. And no, I did not have that specific TR (or any other ME, MP, IR TR for that matter) on my licence prior to the skill test. I went from SE, SP CPL-H to ME, MP, IR ATPL-H in one single check ride.

However, I did have this TR (with more than 500 hrs on type) on an ICAO licence. I don't know if that made a difference but it should not as the ATPL is based on your written exams, your skill test(s) and the hours you have.

If your authority does not allow it, try changing the country issuing your licence to a more open minded one !

Hope that answer your question favourably

Cheers

[GoodGrief]

I went from SE, SP CPL-H to ME, MP, IR ATPL-H in one single check ride.

I doubt that since one needs 350 hours MP before being issued an ATPL as per FCL.510 H.

[212man]

The ATPL skill test may serve at the same time as a skill test for the issue of the licence and a proficiency check for the revalidation of the type rating for the aircraft used in the test and may be combined with the skill test for the issue of a MP type rating.

Which is exactly what was done in my previous organisation when we recruited an ex RAF pilot with AW139 TR on a CPL(H) and put him through an S92 TR course at FSI in Farnborough.

On any check ride you're the pilot in command.
In order to act as PIC you need a valid type rating.

With that logic, how could you ever get a TR issued then or, indeed, get your initial CPL?

[GoodGrief]

During a TR course you're not the PIC, the instructor is. During the TR check the examiner is. Type the gets endorsed on your licence, then you can be PIC.
Simples...But as a TRI you knew that, didn't you ?

[Mustapha Cuppa]

On any check ride you're the pilot in command.

1. Who is the pilot in command i.e. who is "you"?

2. What's a check ride?

[Peter PanPan]

checkride = skill test

Thanks for your input GoodGrief, I am afraid though that this not how I understand the AMC. In fact, I subscribe to what 212man writes regarding the S-92. On the first day of my initial pilot type rating at FSI for the S-92A, one of the first things that was asked by the instructors was precisely: "Does anyone need an ATPL skill test?"

None of us were rated on the S-92A evidently since this was an initial pilot course.

Linda787 thanks for sharing your experience, you must have obviously met the multi-pilot time requirement prior to the checkride and I guess your time on type flown through your ICAO license fulfilled that requirement. However, strictly speaking you did not have the printed type rating on your Part-FCL license, which is what my CA is expecting. They want me to hold the type rating first prior to understanding the ATPL skill test.

[hueyracer]

I am afraid you might be wrong:

FCL.510.H.ATPL(H) clearly states that the applicant for an ATPL(H) shall have a CPL(H) and a type rating on a MP helicopter plus MCC course.

If you do not hold a MP helicopter type rating, you are not compliant with the requirements.

AMC 1 FCL.520.H. ATPL refers to an ADDITIONAL MP-type rating....otherwise 510.H.ATPL(H) would not make any sense..

[Peter PanPan]

Thanks for your feedback hueyracer.

Indeed FCL.510.H ATPL(H) — Prerequisites, experience and crediting does state that applicants for an ATPL(H) shall (a) hold a CPL(H) and a multi-pilot helicopter type rating and have received instruction in MCC, however (d) states the experience required in (b) shall be completed before the skill test for the ATPL(H) is taken.

Therefore all the aeronautical experience listed under (b) must be obtained prior to the skill test, which logically implies that one must have held a MP helicopter type rating in order to build the 350 hours required prior to the skill test.

Following your rational, one would have to necessarily hold two MP helicopter type ratings in case the skill test is conducted following an initial pilot course. In other words, you are suggesting that it is virtually impossible to undertake an ATPL(H) skill test upon completion of an initial pilot type rating, unless you hold at the time a MP helicopter type rating on the license.

Why wouldn't AMC1 FCL.520.H specify that it refers to an "additional" MP helicopter type rating?

Again, if I understand you correctly, in case you are undergoing an initial pilot course, the only way you can do the ATPL(H) skill test at the end of your course is provided your CPL(H) already holds a MP helicopter type rating?

[GoodGrief]

The initial course ends with a CPL. The ATPL is for experienced pilots meeting the FCL requirements.
You get your CPL let's say on an R44. A company hires you and gives you a MP TR. You then fly as a Co pilot untill you have at least 1000 hours total and min 350 hours on that MP type. Only then can you go for the ATP test.

[hueyracer]

GG is correct.

Keep in mind that the "normal" way to complete an ATPL is an appropriate course ("frozen ATPL" which does not exist in helicopter world), or the way GG has described-which will give you a MP-type rating BEFORE the skills test for an ATPL.

You can however combine the skills test for the ATPL with another MP-type rating-lets say you went the way GG described, have a TR on a MP-Bell 412, and are doing a MP-checkride on a AW139-you can then combine the type rating check with the skills test for the ATPL.


There is another way, but ONLY if you hold an expired MP type rating-in that case, the CAA might give you approval to do the ATPL-skills check while doing a renewal check, or while doing the type rating check for another MP-helicoper.

If you do not have a MP-rating, how did you get the required MP-hours for an ATPL?

[AW4EVER]

Hi all
For the check ride ATPL(H) if you have more than 500 flight in MP helicopter on Multicrew ops you don't need MCC.

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by hueyracer

If you do not have a MP-rating, how did you get the required MP-hours for an ATPL?

In the military?

[Peter PanPan]

@hueyracer and GoodGrief:

Thank you for your thoughts, I apologize if I hadn't made this clear earlier but I have nearly 2000 hours Multi-Pilot and have held several twin-turbine type ratings on my license over the years. The situation right now is that I hold an expired MP type rating on my license (June this year) and will be attending an initial pilot course this Fall (Initial as in I haven't flown the type before to make it clear).

This is where I think the whole confusion lays: FCL.510.H ATPL(H)(d) states all the experience must have been accumulated prior to applying for the skill test - no discussion on this, it's very clear. The issue is that my Competent Authority states that I cannot combine the type rating skill test this Fall with the ATPL(H) skill, despite the fact that I do meet the ATPL(H) experience requirements, which obviously means I have all the MP time and have held / currently hold an expired MP type on my license.

It therefore sounds like, based on what you wrote hueyracer, that one can combine the type skill test with the license skill test, provided there is a MP type already on the license.

But what about a pilot who meets all the requirements for the ATPL(H) but who does not hold a MP type on his/her license. According to what you wrote, he or she would have to complete the initial pilot course, bring back the paperwork to the CA and get the type rating on the license, once the type rating is printed on the license and only then can the pilot sign up for the ATPL(H) skill test?

[GoodGrief]

I feel trolled...

[hueyracer]

In your case as written above, i would suggest you talk directly to the relevant person in charge of practical examination/check rides at your CAA.

In my opinion, they should allow you to combine both skill checks, as the requirements are met.

What is the purpose of the regulations?
They assume someone does his first MP-rating and the MCC-course, then accumulates the hours required towards the ATPL on this aircraft, flying as CP or PICUS...
Then you do a revalidation or renewal check, or add on another MP type rating-and you can use this skills check towards your ATPL.

So in your case, all the above is complied with...

Just ask them what they want?

Do they want you to do the MP type rating course as PIC (i assume it IS VFR and IFR combined-as the ATPL-check has to be VFR/IFR (2 hours), unless you are aiming for the ATPL(VFR), then you have to do 2 hours at least....and then they want you to do the same check again for your ATPL?



You´re not by any chance from Spain or Portugal?

And just to confirm:

Your "MP-hours" are REAL multi-pilot hours on an aircraft that HAS to be flown by two pilots in accordance with the Operations Manual, and not just a single pilot aircraft that is flown by two pilots?

[hueyracer]

In the military?

Those hours do not count towards a FCL license.

Each country must describe the process of license conversion from military to civilian licenses in their version of Part FCL, and those must be approved by EASA.

If a country does not have those procedures, the military experience does not count anything towards a civil license; if it has, the procedures are explicitly explained in the appropriate docs-not all countries have multi-pilot approved aircraft, although most of them do fly in a multi-pilot environment.....

Read the regs....

[Peter PanPan]

@hueyracer: PM sent