Helideck aiming (TD/PM) circles
I'll stand by 212 man with this - if the deck is marked correctly it is the safest simplest thing to do to follow the guidelines. 'I know best' sadly is the last word in a lot of accidents. it doesn't matter whose SOPS they are you divert from them at your peril - east or west.............
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212 has a point, if the helicopter turned 90° to the left and maintained the deck position in relation to the aiming circle, the tail would be compromised in the 150° sector. By landing correctly each time it becomes second nature especially at night with a side on landing with the tail towards the 150° sector.
The H is an important indicator as it is set up to indicate the 150° sector, plus there is no excuse not to know the landing details as all rigs/vessels certainly in Europe have drawings and mobiles give wind and ships heading so the crew are fully aware of their landing direction in relation to obstacles.
That said I introduced an Helideck test into a training exercise and it was met with blank stares so the lack of knowledge regarding helidecks is I believe widespread. The fault lies both with the pilot, for the information is available, and the training departments for not ensuring all crews are familiar with the deck markings.
The H is an important indicator as it is set up to indicate the 150° sector, plus there is no excuse not to know the landing details as all rigs/vessels certainly in Europe have drawings and mobiles give wind and ships heading so the crew are fully aware of their landing direction in relation to obstacles.
That said I introduced an Helideck test into a training exercise and it was met with blank stares so the lack of knowledge regarding helidecks is I believe widespread. The fault lies both with the pilot, for the information is available, and the training departments for not ensuring all crews are familiar with the deck markings.
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if the helicopter turned 90° to the left and maintained the deck position in relation to the aiming circle, the tail would be compromised in the 150° sector
The fault lies both with the pilot, for the information is available, and the training departments for not ensuring all crews are familiar with the deck markings.
Didn't it occurre to any of the hair-splitting deck-positioning regulation-quoting gurus here that it was just a case of being a bit short initially but that having touched the main gear wheels in what is (given the conditions at the time) a safe position the pilot just preferred to let the nose wheel down and stay there rather than bringing it back up in the hover and pushing forward a bit.
A case of "well, not great, but I'll do better next time".
Yes the position is not ideal, but it's still safe and don't start all the BS about "IF there is a crane", or "IF it's night", or "IF it does a sudden 90° pedal turn", because you know what? IF anything had been different I'm sure the pilot would have been taking it into account and been much closer to the ideal position!
2 pages thread for that! Geez, get a life!
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People, have some perspective, it is a photograph taken in time and does not in anyway allow armchair critics to decide the dangers in any practice out there, all this photo does show is that the pilot landed outside of what the circle is intended for. Was he/she safe? Looks that way doesn't it. Is it SOP for operators to always land outside the markings? No idea, but would assume no. Is training by any company outside the standards authorized? Again, I have no idea but highly doubtful, customer audits would certainly take care of that.
The positive from this topic, its a cool picture, discussion has been generated, albeit a bit negative and defensive, but a discussion nonetheless, and another picture was posted. God one has to love pictures of our work, n'est pas?
The positive from this topic, its a cool picture, discussion has been generated, albeit a bit negative and defensive, but a discussion nonetheless, and another picture was posted. God one has to love pictures of our work, n'est pas?
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GKaplan,
Who is talking about ignorant, you, not me? Being unaware is not the same as being ignorant. When you are on the road road signs give information and by observing them you are less likely to have an accident. As part of your driving test you must learn about the highway code.
What is the difference when you strap a helicopter to your backside? Rules of the Air, Air Law, Instrument Flight Rules are followed and pilots are checked numerous times over the flying career, but come to an offshore lading area rules go out the window, not because pilots are ignorant, but because they don't have understand the signage. Don't get me wrong I was one of those too, but once I started to fly in Europe I came acros the Helideck Manual, read it and saw the light.
Before I retired I had access to a number of videos of helicopters sticking their tail rotors into obstructions, all preventable if the deck indications were followed.
Back to the photo, yes the landing easy safe, what is safer is using the H and the circle so no matter your approach direction you will always be safe. Moving cranes are another story!
Who is talking about ignorant, you, not me? Being unaware is not the same as being ignorant. When you are on the road road signs give information and by observing them you are less likely to have an accident. As part of your driving test you must learn about the highway code.
What is the difference when you strap a helicopter to your backside? Rules of the Air, Air Law, Instrument Flight Rules are followed and pilots are checked numerous times over the flying career, but come to an offshore lading area rules go out the window, not because pilots are ignorant, but because they don't have understand the signage. Don't get me wrong I was one of those too, but once I started to fly in Europe I came acros the Helideck Manual, read it and saw the light.
Before I retired I had access to a number of videos of helicopters sticking their tail rotors into obstructions, all preventable if the deck indications were followed.
Back to the photo, yes the landing easy safe, what is safer is using the H and the circle so no matter your approach direction you will always be safe. Moving cranes are another story!
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We have an old saying that rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. I translate that to mean that a man is deemed to be wise if he knows and understands the purpose of the deck markings and how and when to use them. There are those that wrongly believe that everything out there in the offshore world is well organised, well designed and homogenous. It isn't. We can wish for a world that works according to a simple set of rules but the ingenuity, initiative and resilience of the crew are still required skills. More in some parts of the world than in others.
G.
G.
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Just to confirm the use of the "bum line"
The pilot reported that she was making a normal approach to the oil platform. Both cranes were shut down on the oil platform, and she received a green deck for landing. The helicopter was over the landing circle when she turned the helicopter’s tail and felt a severe shudder. She immediately landed and shut down the helicopter. The examination of the helicopter and landing platform revealed that the tail rotor blades had struck a handrail on the east crane davit, which resulted in substantial damage to the tail rotor gearbox and drivetrain.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: The pilot’s failure to maintain tail rotor clearance from a handrail on a crane davit on an oil platform during landing.
The pilot reported that she was making a normal approach to the oil platform. Both cranes were shut down on the oil platform, and she received a green deck for landing. The helicopter was over the landing circle when she turned the helicopter’s tail and felt a severe shudder. She immediately landed and shut down the helicopter. The examination of the helicopter and landing platform revealed that the tail rotor blades had struck a handrail on the east crane davit, which resulted in substantial damage to the tail rotor gearbox and drivetrain.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: The pilot’s failure to maintain tail rotor clearance from a handrail on a crane davit on an oil platform during landing.
Thread Starter
Check - obviously you don't get it. But, after reading some of the other posts I feel suitably re-educated:
I shall now consider that all those thousands of times I have put an aircraft down with my bum over the circle can be ascribed to a hitherto unknown case of OCD, so thanks for highlighting my illness and I shall seek a cure through the pages of this forum.
As an aside, to illustrate my belief in the importance of airmanship: in my last job (when writing the SOPs and checklists for the S92) my single sheet checklist for inflight use did not contain 'cruise' checks. My view was/is that the typical contents of such checks (as found in most North Sea operators' lists) constitute items that are intrinsic in 'airmanship'.
- Having realised I'm in the wrong place, it might be dangerous to actually enter the hover again, so I can adopt the "it's good enough for government work" stance and leave it there.
- Being told where I should land is a breach of my fundamental human right to use airmanship in lieu of SOPs, so God forbid I actually use them.
I shall now consider that all those thousands of times I have put an aircraft down with my bum over the circle can be ascribed to a hitherto unknown case of OCD, so thanks for highlighting my illness and I shall seek a cure through the pages of this forum.
As an aside, to illustrate my belief in the importance of airmanship: in my last job (when writing the SOPs and checklists for the S92) my single sheet checklist for inflight use did not contain 'cruise' checks. My view was/is that the typical contents of such checks (as found in most North Sea operators' lists) constitute items that are intrinsic in 'airmanship'.
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212 man,
I am not sure "what I don't get" but what I do know after many years in Flight Safety and investigating accidents/incidents is that knowing and using the deck markings is an integral part of airmanship.
I am not sure "what I don't get" but what I do know after many years in Flight Safety and investigating accidents/incidents is that knowing and using the deck markings is an integral part of airmanship.
Thread Starter
Sorry Check - I assumed my sarcasm was obvious and my points were not aimed at you but at other posters........
Being a long time retired old codger, for what it's worth I'm 100% behind 212man. Having spent 27 years on the North Sea I made damn sure my bum was on the circle every single time I landed offshore whether I was sure the tail was clear or not. I bet the crew of a S61 back in 1990 thought their tail was clear of obstructions when landing on the Brent Spar. Sadly they and 6 of their passengers died not knowing why it went horribly wrong.
A comment was made recently during my training for the Advanced Driving Test because I always signalled my intentions even though being on a country road no traffic was around. My response was that it was standard for me - I was signalling for the guy I hadn't seen and the point was accepted. SOP's - do them whether you think they are needed or not. They were created from other people's experience. Learn from them rather than learn from your own mistakes.
A comment was made recently during my training for the Advanced Driving Test because I always signalled my intentions even though being on a country road no traffic was around. My response was that it was standard for me - I was signalling for the guy I hadn't seen and the point was accepted. SOP's - do them whether you think they are needed or not. They were created from other people's experience. Learn from them rather than learn from your own mistakes.
Thread Starter
Being a long time retired old codger, for what it's worth I'm 100% behind 212man. Having spent 27 years on the North Sea I made damn sure my bum was on the circle every single time I landed offshore whether I was sure the tail was clear or not. I bet the crew of a S61 back in 1990 thought their tail was clear of obstructions when landing on the Brent Spar. Sadly they and 6 of their passengers died not knowing why it went horribly wrong.
A comment was made recently during my training for the Advanced Driving Test because I always signalled my intentions even though being on a country road no traffic was around. My response was that it was standard for me - I was signalling for the guy I hadn't seen and the point was accepted. SOP's - do them whether you think they are needed or not. They were created from other people's experience. Learn from them rather than learn from your own mistakes.
A comment was made recently during my training for the Advanced Driving Test because I always signalled my intentions even though being on a country road no traffic was around. My response was that it was standard for me - I was signalling for the guy I hadn't seen and the point was accepted. SOP's - do them whether you think they are needed or not. They were created from other people's experience. Learn from them rather than learn from your own mistakes.
212man, personally I've found it an enlightening discussion, and worth the two pages, despite what others apparently think. I was forced to dig out our procedures, and include pertinent parts here.
All our platforms had the circle and H, but I have no idea what standard they might have complied with, if any. One platform had at best 120° arc for T/O, landing, rather than the 210 splay called for in the CAP. Single pilot, with the wind in an unfavourable quarter, it was necessary to come to the hover along side the platform, looking across the cockpit, and slide to the left to get over the landing area. We did go two crew later. Checking just now, I see the authority has published a document which is almost word for word of your CAP.
You can see from the following why I said the operation relied on airmanship. In my 27 years there was never any incident.
All our platforms had the circle and H, but I have no idea what standard they might have complied with, if any. One platform had at best 120° arc for T/O, landing, rather than the 210 splay called for in the CAP. Single pilot, with the wind in an unfavourable quarter, it was necessary to come to the hover along side the platform, looking across the cockpit, and slide to the left to get over the landing area. We did go two crew later. Checking just now, I see the authority has published a document which is almost word for word of your CAP.
You can see from the following why I said the operation relied on airmanship. In my 27 years there was never any incident.
HELIDECK PROCEDURES
The Pilot in Command shall ensure that objects (other than those exempted) are clear of helipads and platforms during take-off and landing operations.
Prior to touchdown on platforms, the Pilot in Command shall ensure that the tail rotor is clear of the helideck floodlights and access stairways. The helicopter should be positioned in such a way that a crewmember has the access stairway visible.
On platforms where obstacles exist close to the northern edge of the Helideck, a black line will be painted across the Helideck on the southern side to assist pilots with tail rotor clearances when hovering with a southerly aspect. With the pilots’ bodies over that line, and with the aircraft in the hover, there will only be 3 meters clearance between the tail rotor disc and the edge of the steel deck.
On Platform X, the black line has been positioned so that with the pilots’ bodies over that line in the hover, the tail rotor disc will be vertically above the edge of the steel deck. On Platform X, there should be no obstructions above Helideck level between the north edge of the steel Helideck, and the "hitching rails" on the main deck. At least 3 meters tail rotor clearance if the black line is used. (Comment: this implies to me that the bum over the circle was not a viable option, and a NS person with his/her SOP would have been in a great deal of trouble. Know the local rules/standard seems to be the lesson. See following para as well).
The black lines are advisory only, and are not intended to imply that 3 meters tail rotor clearance to platform obstructions is considered satisfactory.
Freight on Helidecks
Under certain circumstances, e.g.for manual handling considerations of platform —personnel, freight weighing at least 100 lbs may be left on the NE or NW corner ’ of the Helideck during helicopter operations. All freight on the Helideck is required to be strapped down to prevent movement from wind or rotor wash. The maximum height of the freight is one metre.
The Pilot in Command shall be the final authority for operations with freight on the Helideck.
The Pilot in Command shall ensure that at least one pilot will be able to maintain visual contact with the freight at all times during the take-off and/or landing, and shall confirm with the platform that the freight has been secured against movement.
Helideck Floodlights
Four floodlights are used to illuminate each helideck. These lights, two on north side, two on south side, are situated on the outer edge of the safety netting, and extend 42 cms above helideck level. They therefore represent a significant hazard to tail rotor clearance when terminating on the approach, and in the hover.
CRITICAL PROCEDURE LINKED TO HELIPORT RISK SCENARIO HX08, WHICH IS CLASSIFIED AS LRM.
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PROCEDURE IS A KEY PREVENTION MEASURE IN REDUCING THIS RISK.
lf in doubt about the suitability of any platform for landing or take·off, the Pilot in Command shall abort the operation until satisfied.
The Pilot in Command shall ensure that objects (other than those exempted) are clear of helipads and platforms during take-off and landing operations.
Prior to touchdown on platforms, the Pilot in Command shall ensure that the tail rotor is clear of the helideck floodlights and access stairways. The helicopter should be positioned in such a way that a crewmember has the access stairway visible.
On platforms where obstacles exist close to the northern edge of the Helideck, a black line will be painted across the Helideck on the southern side to assist pilots with tail rotor clearances when hovering with a southerly aspect. With the pilots’ bodies over that line, and with the aircraft in the hover, there will only be 3 meters clearance between the tail rotor disc and the edge of the steel deck.
On Platform X, the black line has been positioned so that with the pilots’ bodies over that line in the hover, the tail rotor disc will be vertically above the edge of the steel deck. On Platform X, there should be no obstructions above Helideck level between the north edge of the steel Helideck, and the "hitching rails" on the main deck. At least 3 meters tail rotor clearance if the black line is used. (Comment: this implies to me that the bum over the circle was not a viable option, and a NS person with his/her SOP would have been in a great deal of trouble. Know the local rules/standard seems to be the lesson. See following para as well).
The black lines are advisory only, and are not intended to imply that 3 meters tail rotor clearance to platform obstructions is considered satisfactory.
Freight on Helidecks
Under certain circumstances, e.g.for manual handling considerations of platform —personnel, freight weighing at least 100 lbs may be left on the NE or NW corner ’ of the Helideck during helicopter operations. All freight on the Helideck is required to be strapped down to prevent movement from wind or rotor wash. The maximum height of the freight is one metre.
The Pilot in Command shall be the final authority for operations with freight on the Helideck.
The Pilot in Command shall ensure that at least one pilot will be able to maintain visual contact with the freight at all times during the take-off and/or landing, and shall confirm with the platform that the freight has been secured against movement.
Helideck Floodlights
Four floodlights are used to illuminate each helideck. These lights, two on north side, two on south side, are situated on the outer edge of the safety netting, and extend 42 cms above helideck level. They therefore represent a significant hazard to tail rotor clearance when terminating on the approach, and in the hover.
CRITICAL PROCEDURE LINKED TO HELIPORT RISK SCENARIO HX08, WHICH IS CLASSIFIED AS LRM.
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PROCEDURE IS A KEY PREVENTION MEASURE IN REDUCING THIS RISK.
lf in doubt about the suitability of any platform for landing or take·off, the Pilot in Command shall abort the operation until satisfied.
Hey 212man, I bet you never thought you would stir up such a hornets nest😀. Good job I landed in the centre on the Forties D, I didn't know anyone was going to take "that" picture...
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I want you to imagine that whilst sitting in your comfortable business class seat on the 747 landing at LHR the Captain comes on the PA and explains to the pax that he is now handing control to the co pilot because from his seat he cannot actually see the runway.
Crazy - yes.... but it's what the offshore captain has to do when it's a LHS landing for he cannot see the deck once he gets to LDP.
The greatest number of incidents offshore are caused by the helicopter striking an object in the vicinity of the helideck.
G.
Crazy - yes.... but it's what the offshore captain has to do when it's a LHS landing for he cannot see the deck once he gets to LDP.
The greatest number of incidents offshore are caused by the helicopter striking an object in the vicinity of the helideck.
G.
Thread Starter
Whilst on the main topic, something to bear in mind is that alleviations will be in place to allow the AH175 and AW139 to use 0.83D decks. This will make the margins even smaller, and positioning even more important.
212man, just a query, did you pick up the phone to the operating base and inquire as to the story behind your photo? Would seem a sensible thing to do if you regard it as such a safety issue. Conduct you walk past is conduct you accept as OK, as one Australian famously said.
