Are Police Helicopters Really Necessary?
I have been following the Persistent Surveillance System PSS [and similar] for quite a few years now and I really expected it to pop up in use at the London Olympics but no sign of it there. Whilst it does what it says on the label it does have this in-built problem of requiring a petty clear sky. Great in California but rubbish in most of Europe. That is possibly why it did not make London 2012. That is not a criticism - after all police aviation needs the same clear sky sometimes and is not therefore as persistent as the 24/7/365 hype tends to suggest.
The requirement for a PSS to need an endlessly orbiting aircraft suggests that it might get a bit boring up there and therefor perhaps once the technical side of Sense and Avoid is sorted its something a UAS could do.
On reading this article it seems that it is a fairly good back up to a modest coverage of CCTV [the ultimate 2012 London deterrent was lots of cameras] if targeting a specific area without the blanket application of ground cameras. But only of course while the Cessna carrier is in the air. How many PSS Cessna's would it need to cover LA all day every day? Impossible by any measure.
As I said PSS has been on offer for a long time now and new technology is appearing that might well just brush it under the table in the same way as those tape recorders were banished from airborne surveillance just when they got them right because someone 'invented' the solid state recorder in the same week
Harris now have a system that does the same thing without the requirement for the endless circling carrier aircraft. It is still in development but its a turret [about 15inch] that can be fitted to anything and as far as I can make out it changes the endless circling into an electronic scan to detect the changes. It will probably cost more but may be better.... especially if all it needs is to replace the EO/IR turret on your standard airframe.
They call it CorvusEye 1500 and ... maybe.
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The requirement for a PSS to need an endlessly orbiting aircraft suggests that it might get a bit boring up there and therefor perhaps once the technical side of Sense and Avoid is sorted its something a UAS could do.
On reading this article it seems that it is a fairly good back up to a modest coverage of CCTV [the ultimate 2012 London deterrent was lots of cameras] if targeting a specific area without the blanket application of ground cameras. But only of course while the Cessna carrier is in the air. How many PSS Cessna's would it need to cover LA all day every day? Impossible by any measure.
As I said PSS has been on offer for a long time now and new technology is appearing that might well just brush it under the table in the same way as those tape recorders were banished from airborne surveillance just when they got them right because someone 'invented' the solid state recorder in the same week
Harris now have a system that does the same thing without the requirement for the endless circling carrier aircraft. It is still in development but its a turret [about 15inch] that can be fitted to anything and as far as I can make out it changes the endless circling into an electronic scan to detect the changes. It will probably cost more but may be better.... especially if all it needs is to replace the EO/IR turret on your standard airframe.
They call it CorvusEye 1500 and ... maybe.
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No, yes, no. 
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
No, they are not.
I often wonder why people like you have your opinion of police helicopters and their crews; I think it is because we always read the nice stories about casualties going to say thank you to the air ambulance crews that airlifted them .... but no one ever knocks on a police unit's door to say thank you.
Serf, I would like to see you say that to face of the mother who has just been reunited with her six year old daughter who had been missing for four hours. How were they reunited? She was located in a gulley on the moors near to where they were staying by the police helicopter on a dark, wet, cold winters evening.
I often wonder why people like you have your opinion of police helicopters and their crews; I think it is because we always read the nice stories about casualties going to say thank you to the air ambulance crews that airlifted them .... but no one ever knocks on a police unit's door to say thank you.
I often wonder why people like you have your opinion of police helicopters and their crews; I think it is because we always read the nice stories about casualties going to say thank you to the air ambulance crews that airlifted them .... but no one ever knocks on a police unit's door to say thank you.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
they are a nice to have, but absolutely necessary, then no. Policing will still happen without police helicopters, as it does in the vast majority of my part of the U.K.
Futures
It will be interesting to see how the 'rescue/public service' industry develops.
The police [now] 24/7 but mainly a crime fighting tool with secondary out of hours ambulance and search roles. Potential hoist capability [London], searchlight and EO/IR. NVG developing
UK SAR 24/7 mainly a SAR tool with secondary ambulance and some
recorded crime fighting roles noted in recent times and the past. The only one with any real personnel capacity, a dedicated hoist capability, searchlight and EO/IR. NVG
Air ambulance daylight only but moving towards some work in the dark.... may be 24/7 one day and some potential winch/long line capability. Searchlight already perhaps EO/IR in the future. NVG developing
All three are nominally the same but have difference priorities and funding models. The air ambulance has the more stable funding model when compared to the government funded police and SAR but those dedication borders are being steadily eroded. The threat to the air ambulance funding model is perhaps a public perception that they might be leaving the cosy charitable sector of 'ambulance.'
It is not beyond belief that an air ambulance charity might one day use its superior funding model to actually start using a hoist to lift rather than as a [retractable] long line, and might carry a multi-purpose EO/IR rather than perhaps start use as a night vision aid.
The result might be a complete reverse engineering of the dual use Wiltshire Police/Ambulance operation of yesteryear.
There are already several instances of charity funded SAR ambulances with a supplementry police option in Australia so the three seperate elements as we now have could easly and safely morph into one over a [considerable] period of time - that would mean we do not exactly have 'police helicopters'at all.
The police [now] 24/7 but mainly a crime fighting tool with secondary out of hours ambulance and search roles. Potential hoist capability [London], searchlight and EO/IR. NVG developing
UK SAR 24/7 mainly a SAR tool with secondary ambulance and some
recorded crime fighting roles noted in recent times and the past. The only one with any real personnel capacity, a dedicated hoist capability, searchlight and EO/IR. NVG
Air ambulance daylight only but moving towards some work in the dark.... may be 24/7 one day and some potential winch/long line capability. Searchlight already perhaps EO/IR in the future. NVG developing
All three are nominally the same but have difference priorities and funding models. The air ambulance has the more stable funding model when compared to the government funded police and SAR but those dedication borders are being steadily eroded. The threat to the air ambulance funding model is perhaps a public perception that they might be leaving the cosy charitable sector of 'ambulance.'
It is not beyond belief that an air ambulance charity might one day use its superior funding model to actually start using a hoist to lift rather than as a [retractable] long line, and might carry a multi-purpose EO/IR rather than perhaps start use as a night vision aid.
The result might be a complete reverse engineering of the dual use Wiltshire Police/Ambulance operation of yesteryear.
There are already several instances of charity funded SAR ambulances with a supplementry police option in Australia so the three seperate elements as we now have could easly and safely morph into one over a [considerable] period of time - that would mean we do not exactly have 'police helicopters'at all.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Because i asked you the question here, based on your earlier reply here.
Thread Starter
Logically it is the same question.
Before Helicopters....people were transported by Ground Ambulances.
When Helicopters are not available....people are transported by Ground Ambulances.
Same in Police work and SAR....in the absence of Helicopters other assets are used.
Comparative efficiencies is the argument and whether one method undo's the need for another or are they complement one another and perhaps produce a much better overall product for the cost?
Before Helicopters....people were transported by Ground Ambulances.
When Helicopters are not available....people are transported by Ground Ambulances.
Same in Police work and SAR....in the absence of Helicopters other assets are used.
Comparative efficiencies is the argument and whether one method undo's the need for another or are they complement one another and perhaps produce a much better overall product for the cost?
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Whilst that is quite true, there is also the political aspect, little Timmy dies en route because there isn't a helicopter, isn't as palatable as the same result whilst en route IN the helicopter. Same with the old bill but slightly harder to justify, hence the ability to open the cracks and provide alternative solutions, be they fixed wing or drones. Both offer a limited solution, but will claim to be a viable and cheaper alternative. Can you seriously imagine no rotary over London? No, but over an outlying county? Absolutely.
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Night Ops
PAN, I would have thought of all people you would know that air ambulance have been doing night ops for quite a while now. So saying daylight only but moving towards night ops is a bit off the mark to those charities who have fronted up and taken on board the use of NVG/NVIS. Each does what they think is required and affordable for their own "patch" . Certainly one has been using NVIS for two years now, another has been using them till about 0300 in morning, and others have been using them to cover the winter months. Apologies if this gets posted twice as I tried quick reply and a mod has to approve it........
Air police what on earth has sentencing policy got to do with the worth or otherwise of emergency services air assets?
Last edited by PANews; 31st Aug 2016 at 09:09. Reason: 'policy' was written police
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PANews, we spend a lot of money catching people to not punish them, so they do it again.
Thread Starter
Job Security....if they stay in Jail you do not get to chase them again.
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The problem is that Police helicopters and Air Ambulances were brought in as a cost saving measure to reduce travel time to far flung incidents and rescue persons who were not conveniently near a road. Ground crews were cut back because they were no longer needed to provide an emergency response in remote areas.
Unfortunately, the cost savings that might have accrued were eaten up by increased costs of aviation. You can't cut back on servicing there, or ride roughshod over the rules governing duty times, unlike police drivers who frequently drove emergency response vehicles for more than eighteen hours in twenty four. Been there, done that. Chasing some scroat at 110 mph down a suburban high street after eighteen hours behind the wheel (including travel to and from home and five hours sleep) is not undertaken lightly. Neither is it particularly safe. Tiredness is probably worse than alcohol in its potential to lead to an accident. Many police officers have been killed in traffic accidents on the way home from work, with no other vehicle involved.
Times have changed and the rules have changed, hopefully for the better, but if you are going to have police helicopters, it has to be run and financed independently and not at the expense of cutting back on ground based staff and vehicles.
We have arrived at the point where police helicopters are necessary to cover the shortfall in investment in ground based resources. Same for air ambulances. If you do away with these services now, all the old remote bases will need to be set up again and a lot more money spent than wil be saved by doing away with helicopters.
Unfortunately, the cost savings that might have accrued were eaten up by increased costs of aviation. You can't cut back on servicing there, or ride roughshod over the rules governing duty times, unlike police drivers who frequently drove emergency response vehicles for more than eighteen hours in twenty four. Been there, done that. Chasing some scroat at 110 mph down a suburban high street after eighteen hours behind the wheel (including travel to and from home and five hours sleep) is not undertaken lightly. Neither is it particularly safe. Tiredness is probably worse than alcohol in its potential to lead to an accident. Many police officers have been killed in traffic accidents on the way home from work, with no other vehicle involved.
Times have changed and the rules have changed, hopefully for the better, but if you are going to have police helicopters, it has to be run and financed independently and not at the expense of cutting back on ground based staff and vehicles.
We have arrived at the point where police helicopters are necessary to cover the shortfall in investment in ground based resources. Same for air ambulances. If you do away with these services now, all the old remote bases will need to be set up again and a lot more money spent than wil be saved by doing away with helicopters.
HEMS Chap yes but in reviewing the state of the nation it would have been incorrect of me to say that HEMS are 24/7 night flying. Daylight only is the broad picture, night capability is where some are moving towards.
They are all different, shades of absolutely nothing to operating. Only the police [still not 100% but the intent is there when the held over units like Lancashire close] and SAR can be declared as 24/7 night flying.
I am sorry but the majority of UK HEMS are not yet night flyers. Extending hours or return flights into the dark is not in any way a solid commitment to night flying. Even those with proper night flying on their agenda are still talking of close down around midnight, maybe 2am. Yes some do more than others but many have no intention of doing 'real' 24/7 at the moment simply because the demand is currently seen as too patchy or there is simply nowhere to fly to..... sort of pretty useful to have a 24/7 helipad at a hospital if you declare a capability!
As you say.... Each does what they think is required and affordable for their own "patch".... but NPAS and SAR is a national commitment.... you still need insider knowledge to know where it is safe to break your leg at night...
Only when we are anywhere near the point where you can stand anywhere in the UK at any time of day and demand a HEMS air ambulance is there a night service. At the moment the odds are well stacked that either the police or SAR will turn up. As long as the weather and serviceability are kind of course.....
I have little doubt that a handful of UK HEMS may decide to go real 24/7 in a year or three but near future [say 2017] its still down to the police and UK SAR to provide that service for the foreseeable future.
They are all different, shades of absolutely nothing to operating. Only the police [still not 100% but the intent is there when the held over units like Lancashire close] and SAR can be declared as 24/7 night flying.
I am sorry but the majority of UK HEMS are not yet night flyers. Extending hours or return flights into the dark is not in any way a solid commitment to night flying. Even those with proper night flying on their agenda are still talking of close down around midnight, maybe 2am. Yes some do more than others but many have no intention of doing 'real' 24/7 at the moment simply because the demand is currently seen as too patchy or there is simply nowhere to fly to..... sort of pretty useful to have a 24/7 helipad at a hospital if you declare a capability!
As you say.... Each does what they think is required and affordable for their own "patch".... but NPAS and SAR is a national commitment.... you still need insider knowledge to know where it is safe to break your leg at night...
Only when we are anywhere near the point where you can stand anywhere in the UK at any time of day and demand a HEMS air ambulance is there a night service. At the moment the odds are well stacked that either the police or SAR will turn up. As long as the weather and serviceability are kind of course.....
I have little doubt that a handful of UK HEMS may decide to go real 24/7 in a year or three but near future [say 2017] its still down to the police and UK SAR to provide that service for the foreseeable future.
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The BBC news has just announced there has been yet another road accident (pedestrian fatalities x 4) involving a car being pursued by police vehicles.
Avoidance of this type of accident was one of the reasons police pursuits in UK were in my day (pre NPAS) often carried out from the air where possible. Obviously, with fewer aircraft now available, this type of accident is very likely to continue to occur, as it was in the bad old days before police helicopter air support was more in vogue.
Avoidance of this type of accident was one of the reasons police pursuits in UK were in my day (pre NPAS) often carried out from the air where possible. Obviously, with fewer aircraft now available, this type of accident is very likely to continue to occur, as it was in the bad old days before police helicopter air support was more in vogue.
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Mate, seriously?
It's literally just occurred, people have died and you're tapping out that sort of ****e?
It was in London FFS, how many rotary on call?
You don't know the circumstances, how long it was being followed and people have died. Nice one.
It's literally just occurred, people have died and you're tapping out that sort of ****e?
It was in London FFS, how many rotary on call?
You don't know the circumstances, how long it was being followed and people have died. Nice one.
Bit of a daft question really, due to the word 'necessary'
Clearly some criminals have been apprehended due to police helicopters who would otherwise have got away. The real question is whether my taxes were put to good use burning all that Jet A so the little Toerags could be rapped over the knuckles and let off with a suspended sentence. Personally I think not unless you got my money / car / watch back
As for HEMS, there is far less evidence they actually save lives. In fact none. So necessity depends on what value you put on avoiding an hour's land ambulance ride to hospital with a broken leg......
I suspect at the end of the day it is much like anything else paid for by taxes. The 43.8% of the population who pay no tax want more spent. The 1% who pay 27.5% of all taxes are not so enthusiastic.
Clearly some criminals have been apprehended due to police helicopters who would otherwise have got away. The real question is whether my taxes were put to good use burning all that Jet A so the little Toerags could be rapped over the knuckles and let off with a suspended sentence. Personally I think not unless you got my money / car / watch back
As for HEMS, there is far less evidence they actually save lives. In fact none. So necessity depends on what value you put on avoiding an hour's land ambulance ride to hospital with a broken leg......
I suspect at the end of the day it is much like anything else paid for by taxes. The 43.8% of the population who pay no tax want more spent. The 1% who pay 27.5% of all taxes are not so enthusiastic.