Logging hours as FO
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Logging hours as FO
When FOs fly offshore operations in an EASA country, say on AW139/189, can they log any of time as PIC time?
I am thinking how junior guys can collect these days 1000 hrs PIC required for EMS (as per EASA requirements)... and whether offshore FO positions filled in the next 2-3 years will help the EMS demand in the next 3-5 years.
I am thinking how junior guys can collect these days 1000 hrs PIC required for EMS (as per EASA requirements)... and whether offshore FO positions filled in the next 2-3 years will help the EMS demand in the next 3-5 years.
Hello Pilotbro,
You cannot log any hours as PIC as an FO or SFO unless you are the aircraft Captain. This is just the nature of multi-crew operations. If you need PIC then you should try instructing, which can also lead to some aircraft positioning,charter work etc where you are left to make the PIC decisions and can log it appropriately.
A lot of the FO/SFO logbooks are full of P1u/s which is quite frankly a bit of a farce and HEMS employers know you really haven't been actually making all the P1 decisions on all of those flights, (as the Ops manuals state, and I think one of the big 3 operators in the UK state you cannot log more than 50% or something of the flights , with strict stipulations when you do) but a lot of pilots just log it and a large number of Captains, (wrongly) sign the books as they are not bothered, or don't know the rules?
Hope this helps,
B.
You cannot log any hours as PIC as an FO or SFO unless you are the aircraft Captain. This is just the nature of multi-crew operations. If you need PIC then you should try instructing, which can also lead to some aircraft positioning,charter work etc where you are left to make the PIC decisions and can log it appropriately.
A lot of the FO/SFO logbooks are full of P1u/s which is quite frankly a bit of a farce and HEMS employers know you really haven't been actually making all the P1 decisions on all of those flights, (as the Ops manuals state, and I think one of the big 3 operators in the UK state you cannot log more than 50% or something of the flights , with strict stipulations when you do) but a lot of pilots just log it and a large number of Captains, (wrongly) sign the books as they are not bothered, or don't know the rules?
Hope this helps,
B.
In the onshore world nobody gives a t*ss about offshore co-pilot hours. You might as well not even bother logging them, as (rightly or wrongly) you are viewed as a glorified passenger who just does the radio calls.
I don't agree with the feeling that offshore P2 hours are worthless.
What the UK offshore job will teach you is discipline and provide a well grounded apprenticeship.
If you do not intend to stay in the offshore world and hope for promotion then yes a whole bunch of P2 hours might not be worth a great deal to some onshore operators if it's a P1 slot you are going for.
What the UK offshore job will teach you is discipline and provide a well grounded apprenticeship.
If you do not intend to stay in the offshore world and hope for promotion then yes a whole bunch of P2 hours might not be worth a great deal to some onshore operators if it's a P1 slot you are going for.
fohnwind, I'm hoping your post is more tongue in cheek than what you believe. As a co-pilot, under certain circumstances you are able to log p1-us whereby you agree with the commander (captain) before the flight, that you will be leading the flight. You make all decisions, which the captain has to agree with, from flight commencement until shutdown. If at any time you have to be over-ruled then that flight is no longer P1-US (pilot in command under supervision) as you havent proved you can act as pilot in command.
As for flying in a straight line only with autopilot on? Really? I don't remember it being that easy all of the time. Yes there are sectors which are straight and level but people who havent flown offshore havent seen some of the things required, similarly offshore pilots may not have experienced the pressures of onshore flying. I would love to see some of the onshore boys fly a night ARA, two crew, to minima and then hand over control to a (god forbid) 'waste of time' co-pilot, to land on a tiny NUI (small unmanned rig) in the middle of winter, North Sea. It has actually been done a few times that I know of. ( I aso know of an ex-offshore guy who got a capatains position with another offshore company, by saying he had over 2500 P1-US hours, when in fact, he'd actually nowhere near that many as he'd literally counted every hour he did as a P1-US hour regardless of who he flew with. ) I'm certain he won't be the first, or the last.
It's horses for courses. The thought of landing in an unlit site onshore, at night for a VIP, under pressure to get the job done, wouldn't exactly fill me with joy.
Some onshore companies say they fly two crew, but believe me, from what i've been told, and experienced, they have a lot to learn.
Single pilot, fine. Proper multi crew with disciplined procedures, both pilots holding ATPL (not that that really matters)
Just purely out of interest, what is your background for flying? Do you hold an atpl? offshore? onshore? corporate? HEMS, or are you an R22 jockey? ;
ps whats wrong with being an average co-pilot anyway? It pays the bills
As for flying in a straight line only with autopilot on? Really? I don't remember it being that easy all of the time. Yes there are sectors which are straight and level but people who havent flown offshore havent seen some of the things required, similarly offshore pilots may not have experienced the pressures of onshore flying. I would love to see some of the onshore boys fly a night ARA, two crew, to minima and then hand over control to a (god forbid) 'waste of time' co-pilot, to land on a tiny NUI (small unmanned rig) in the middle of winter, North Sea. It has actually been done a few times that I know of. ( I aso know of an ex-offshore guy who got a capatains position with another offshore company, by saying he had over 2500 P1-US hours, when in fact, he'd actually nowhere near that many as he'd literally counted every hour he did as a P1-US hour regardless of who he flew with. ) I'm certain he won't be the first, or the last.
It's horses for courses. The thought of landing in an unlit site onshore, at night for a VIP, under pressure to get the job done, wouldn't exactly fill me with joy.
Some onshore companies say they fly two crew, but believe me, from what i've been told, and experienced, they have a lot to learn.
Single pilot, fine. Proper multi crew with disciplined procedures, both pilots holding ATPL (not that that really matters)
Just purely out of interest, what is your background for flying? Do you hold an atpl? offshore? onshore? corporate? HEMS, or are you an R22 jockey? ;
ps whats wrong with being an average co-pilot anyway? It pays the bills
Last edited by helimutt; 19th Aug 2016 at 10:01.
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Can someone explain what P1 and P2, or P1(u/s), or P1-us stand for? How are they defined?
Have been used a lot in the discussion above, and perhaps I am not the only one wondering what they stand for...
Have been used a lot in the discussion above, and perhaps I am not the only one wondering what they stand for...
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I see some HEMS operators using 2 pilots. Is it really so that there is no career track for the FO to become a captain (which would require building experience that count in the hours too)? Sounds strange... EASA rules really block this route, too?
Tightgit
Fohnwind, I think one of the very important requirements for the Hems companies is NVIS time, this (I believe), is due to the requirements of the charities not the operators. Quite a few charities are looking to move into night time HEMS. This may explain why (assuming what you say is true), many NA co-joes were not successful with PAS. Regarding the 'proper multi crew experience. Well, if the commanders have it, then they can bring that experience to the operation. How much proper multi crew experience do NS co-pilots have when they start?
(Asks an ex- NS co-pilot, although it was a long time ago)
(Asks an ex- NS co-pilot, although it was a long time ago)
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Thread drift but a few comments from reading the above.
fohnwind
I'm not sure this is true. It's a minimum, not the standard. I think a good offshore P2 with an IR/MCC and multi-crew experience would be seen rather favourably if the face fit, as would a good onshore FI with 500hrs P1 time - either could be equally as competent in the role. I believe they hire from across the spectrum. I know most of the guys previously employed in HEMS P2 roles, and their experience ranged from 250hrs without IR to 2500hrs offshore ME with IR, with everything in-between.
Some HEMS is moving in the direction of day/night NVIS multi-crew IFR. Others are day-VFR only. Indeed some day hems aircraft don't have AP/SAS/ILS/EFIS or captains with IR's. The last thing they need sat next to them is an over experienced P2 who feels entitled to a P1 slot because of their S92 rating and 1500hrs P2 offshore, trying to big themselves up with tales of IFR/offshore experiences etc when it's largely irrelevant to the role, and irritating. Not tarring all with that brush, but suggesting it's horses for courses, and much about personality - the right balance of experience, and willingness to learn the role specific skills. The entitled can rub people up the wrong way.
It depends what experience the P2 had beforehand, and if you're any good. EASA require HEMS captains to have a min of 1000hrs P1, or 1000hrs total time with 500hrs as co-pilot in HEMS (or something to this effect). So if you have 1000hrs P1 and a few years HEMS P2 experience then there is a route, it's a question of if the face fits, and a P1 availability. If you have less than 1000hrs P1 then the hours in HEMS are quite slow, so it's not so easy to meet the requirements. 500hrs as HEMS co-pilot would probably be 3-4 years or so.
fohnwind
In fact, having co-pilot hours will often rule you out of an onshore job. Witness the recent PAS HEMS hiring policy of hiring 200 hour HEMS co-pilots (without an IR) as oppose to hiring more experienced pilots.
I would have thought that it's better to hire a pilot with an IR who has proper multi crew experience. But apparently not...
I see some HEMS operators using 2 pilots. Is it really so that there is no career track for the FO to become a captain (which would require building experience that count in the hours too)? Sounds strange... EASA rules really block this route, too?
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It should be fairly simple:
One can only log Copilot hours, if the aircraft is required to be flown by a crew of two-either by the FOM, or by the company OM.
If it is a single pilot helicopter, you cannot log hours-legally.
Hours donīt mean anything anyways....i have seen Captainīs with 3000 hours not able to fly, and Copilots that only had 500 hours having a perfect hand for the machine....
All it is is a number in your cv, defining whether you qualify for "insurance discount" or OGP standards, or not...
One can only log Copilot hours, if the aircraft is required to be flown by a crew of two-either by the FOM, or by the company OM.
If it is a single pilot helicopter, you cannot log hours-legally.
Hours donīt mean anything anyways....i have seen Captainīs with 3000 hours not able to fly, and Copilots that only had 500 hours having a perfect hand for the machine....
All it is is a number in your cv, defining whether you qualify for "insurance discount" or OGP standards, or not...
Yes, very simple.
P1 = the person appointed by the operator to be the pilot in command. He doesn't need to touch the controls for the whole flight, he is still the P1 and has final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft at all times.
P1U/S is a co-pilot who has been appointed by the operator to act as a PIC under the supervision of the P1 who has been appointed by the operator in that supervisory role. The P1U/S does not have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft. Ordinarily a P1U/S log book entry should be certified (i.e. signed off) by the P1 who supervised the P1U/S.
P1 = the person appointed by the operator to be the pilot in command. He doesn't need to touch the controls for the whole flight, he is still the P1 and has final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft at all times.
P1U/S is a co-pilot who has been appointed by the operator to act as a PIC under the supervision of the P1 who has been appointed by the operator in that supervisory role. The P1U/S does not have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft. Ordinarily a P1U/S log book entry should be certified (i.e. signed off) by the P1 who supervised the P1U/S.
Last edited by gulliBell; 20th Aug 2016 at 23:09.
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fohnwind/ERSA;
It may seem the way you see it, but there are other factors. I flew offshore for years, did all the P2/P1U/S stuff and then got a command. I got into on-shore by chance a year after being made redundant, the learning curve was nearly vertical at first, and I had some great mentoring from a few really knowledgable guys.
The problem doesn't stem from the operators (I'm writing about corporate/charter here) it stems from the customers and their insurance companies. We have exactly the same two crew procedures as offshore (Ok, we don't fly ARA's) we train two crew exactly the same way. We also multi-rate, so all pilots fly 2-3 different types and everyone flies both single pilot IFR and multi-crew IFR. BUT, the people who insure the customers as the key men in their companies don't like accepting P2/P1U/S hours. I spend hours every insurance renewal arguing with the underwriters, but the keyman underwiters want 2500 hours P1 with IR, and if you stick that on the hull insurance then you get cheaper premiums, and the aircraft owners will always grab a quick saving, no matter how many banks/hedge funds/supermarket chains they own. They do, not/refuse to accept that the ever widening skills gap is causing a huge crisis in a tiny industry, and they are largely responsible
The next snag is crew cost. I can't afford to hire someone purely as a P2, they have to be able to fly P1/P2 on multiple types from day one, and a sound safe knowledge of on-shore procedures (including landing on a T in Devon on a dark night in winter) is a big advantage.
I wish I had answers, but I don't, I am desperately concerned for the future of the on-shore helicopter industry in the UK. I am due to go in the next retirement block, the difference in hours and experience between me, and one other here pilot here and all the other guys are is huge, I have more P1 at night than one of my guys has total time, and that should not happen.
I can understand the HEMS hiring process on cost grounds, they can create their own specialists in exactly the same way that off-shore has done for years, but the workload on the P1's, especially on NVIS will be high.
SND
It may seem the way you see it, but there are other factors. I flew offshore for years, did all the P2/P1U/S stuff and then got a command. I got into on-shore by chance a year after being made redundant, the learning curve was nearly vertical at first, and I had some great mentoring from a few really knowledgable guys.
The problem doesn't stem from the operators (I'm writing about corporate/charter here) it stems from the customers and their insurance companies. We have exactly the same two crew procedures as offshore (Ok, we don't fly ARA's) we train two crew exactly the same way. We also multi-rate, so all pilots fly 2-3 different types and everyone flies both single pilot IFR and multi-crew IFR. BUT, the people who insure the customers as the key men in their companies don't like accepting P2/P1U/S hours. I spend hours every insurance renewal arguing with the underwriters, but the keyman underwiters want 2500 hours P1 with IR, and if you stick that on the hull insurance then you get cheaper premiums, and the aircraft owners will always grab a quick saving, no matter how many banks/hedge funds/supermarket chains they own. They do, not/refuse to accept that the ever widening skills gap is causing a huge crisis in a tiny industry, and they are largely responsible
The next snag is crew cost. I can't afford to hire someone purely as a P2, they have to be able to fly P1/P2 on multiple types from day one, and a sound safe knowledge of on-shore procedures (including landing on a T in Devon on a dark night in winter) is a big advantage.
I wish I had answers, but I don't, I am desperately concerned for the future of the on-shore helicopter industry in the UK. I am due to go in the next retirement block, the difference in hours and experience between me, and one other here pilot here and all the other guys are is huge, I have more P1 at night than one of my guys has total time, and that should not happen.
I can understand the HEMS hiring process on cost grounds, they can create their own specialists in exactly the same way that off-shore has done for years, but the workload on the P1's, especially on NVIS will be high.
SND
Having been FW for the last 20 years I am amazed to find the definition given above for P1u/s. Amazed to find that it still exists in that form, it's correct form.
Amazed because as soon as I got my command on f/w my FOs were proffering logbooks at the end of a day's flying and expecting me to sign P1u/s without it ever having been mentioned in advance! I got a bit of a reputation for being a grumpy sod for declining. It now seems universal in many if not most UK airlines that every jet f/o writes - now figure this out - every handling sector as P1u/s!! No discussion, no mention of this to the skipper, no signatures any more, every f/o, every day does this and even more bizarrely it is legal apparently having been OK'd by our wonderful CAA! The company endorsed their logbooks with a fib-stamp when they need licence assessments to say all is in order in the logbook. This is all enshrined in the Ops Manual.
No one in my last 2 f/w companies (both household names) but the oldest and crustiest had ever heard of the correct way of doing P1u/s. F/Os simply didn't believe me thinking I was winding them up. Many of our foreign (european) pilots were aghast at our P1u/s system though, so it is a local rule.
How the heck can the CAA run two such contradictory lines? What "logic", if I may so abuse the word, makes a handling sector be the one that a pilot makes the command decisions on? Do the CAA have any notion at all of the nature of aviation? What are they smoking down there in the Belgrano?
Thus all our F/Os appear to be gaining their ATPLs on an official, CAA sponsored dodge that would be illegal in the rest of Europe as I understand it. Strange!
Amazed because as soon as I got my command on f/w my FOs were proffering logbooks at the end of a day's flying and expecting me to sign P1u/s without it ever having been mentioned in advance! I got a bit of a reputation for being a grumpy sod for declining. It now seems universal in many if not most UK airlines that every jet f/o writes - now figure this out - every handling sector as P1u/s!! No discussion, no mention of this to the skipper, no signatures any more, every f/o, every day does this and even more bizarrely it is legal apparently having been OK'd by our wonderful CAA! The company endorsed their logbooks with a fib-stamp when they need licence assessments to say all is in order in the logbook. This is all enshrined in the Ops Manual.
No one in my last 2 f/w companies (both household names) but the oldest and crustiest had ever heard of the correct way of doing P1u/s. F/Os simply didn't believe me thinking I was winding them up. Many of our foreign (european) pilots were aghast at our P1u/s system though, so it is a local rule.
How the heck can the CAA run two such contradictory lines? What "logic", if I may so abuse the word, makes a handling sector be the one that a pilot makes the command decisions on? Do the CAA have any notion at all of the nature of aviation? What are they smoking down there in the Belgrano?
Thus all our F/Os appear to be gaining their ATPLs on an official, CAA sponsored dodge that would be illegal in the rest of Europe as I understand it. Strange!
Well said wageslave....I was also the "mean" one..saying it had to be "earned" not just logged...Some P2's used to get really upset! 
The more bone idle the co pilot, the more they protested
The more bone idle the co pilot, the more they protested
Thus all our F/Os appear to be gaining their ATPLs on an official, CAA sponsored dodge that would be illegal in the rest of Europe as I understand it. Strange!
Here's the EASA Part FCL definition:
PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.