Risks of helicopter winching?
Internal injuries or a dislocated thumb?
Right, well get that diagnosis sorted before you put other people's lives at risk, please.
Right, well get that diagnosis sorted before you put other people's lives at risk, please.
If the casualty was one of your children would you want a rescue helicopter to fly around in circles for a hour waiting for an ambulance to get there to diagnose life-threatening internal injuries or a dislocated thumb?
We don't put our lives at risk. We make informed, professional decisions and are paid to do the job.
Except that, as you well know, in a majority of rescues in the UK, there already is someone on the ground with the casualty - MRT, ambulance paramedic, first responder, coastguard etc etc so you already know from talking to those on airwave/ch 0 on scene what you are facing.
You often get launched with scant information but this is usually quickly updated en route and the main reason you have been tasked is because a winch-equipped helicopter is the best way of extracting the casualty quickly and getting them to primary medical care.
On the occasions when you are first on scene then winching is often the most expeditious way to get the winchman/paramedic to the casualty in order to make an assessment on the injuries and urgency.
You often get launched with scant information but this is usually quickly updated en route and the main reason you have been tasked is because a winch-equipped helicopter is the best way of extracting the casualty quickly and getting them to primary medical care.
On the occasions when you are first on scene then winching is often the most expeditious way to get the winchman/paramedic to the casualty in order to make an assessment on the injuries and urgency.
Thread Starter
In my days as an active bush walker in the NSW Blue Mountains every injured person was carried out by volunteers of the Federation of Bushwalking Clubs S&R section.
Now days virtually every person is lifted out by helicopter.
This is far better as long as affordable and doesn't result in unnecessary accidents and fatalities .
I love helicopters but they often result in extra risk than being on the ground.
When the person about to be winched is given no choice ( when there is a safer alternative ) it's important that they are not exposed to unnecessary risk.
Now days virtually every person is lifted out by helicopter.
This is far better as long as affordable and doesn't result in unnecessary accidents and fatalities .
I love helicopters but they often result in extra risk than being on the ground.
When the person about to be winched is given no choice ( when there is a safer alternative ) it's important that they are not exposed to unnecessary risk.
Although I suspect that most people, given the choice between a short helicopter ride and a long carry out (when they need to go to hospital) would probably take the helo every time. Especially given the number of poisonous things in the bush!
Most winching iterations are conducted perfectly safely - providing the crew are properly trained and practiced.
Most winching iterations are conducted perfectly safely - providing the crew are properly trained and practiced.
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Dick,
After all the dust settles on a rescue, of course there is discussion about how it could have been improved or modified. Safety, CRM, achievement or non-achievement of the aim will all be covered during the debrief and modifications made if/where required. 20-20 hindsight is a wonderful gift.
Unfortunately, the gift is not given until after the rescue. During the rescue you must rely on your training and your previous gifts of 20-20. No-one goes into a rescue with the intention of increasing risk.
After all the dust settles on a rescue, of course there is discussion about how it could have been improved or modified. Safety, CRM, achievement or non-achievement of the aim will all be covered during the debrief and modifications made if/where required. 20-20 hindsight is a wonderful gift.
Unfortunately, the gift is not given until after the rescue. During the rescue you must rely on your training and your previous gifts of 20-20. No-one goes into a rescue with the intention of increasing risk.
Thread Starter
Crab. The important word is "most ".in the last line of your post.
As long as there is no pressure to winch when there are safer ways to do the retrieval I am happy.
As long as there is no pressure to winch when there are safer ways to do the retrieval I am happy.
Maybe not from your seat mate.
I couldn't do the job of a winchman and their bravery and willingness to do what they do to help people in need is humbling.
Northland Rescue is a bit of an outlier in NZ, operating a fleet of S76A.
They winch over land and sea, night and day. This one on the weekend:
Injured skipper hauled to safety in dramatic chopper rescue off North Cape - National - NZ Herald News
They winch over land and sea, night and day. This one on the weekend:
Injured skipper hauled to safety in dramatic chopper rescue off North Cape - National - NZ Herald News
Didn't happen.
Witness claims chopper winch 'drops' doctor - Queenstown News
Witness claims chopper winch 'drops' doctor - Queenstown News
Paul Taylor15 Dec 2011
Rescuers claim a doctor was dropped when a helicopter winch failed during an operation to save an injured hunter.
Members of the Queenstown Alpine Cliff Rescue team say the medic was a few metres above the ground when the cable on the winch snapped. Any higher and he could have been killed, they say.
Their version of events contradicts the official report submitted to authorities.
Lakes District Air Rescue Trust (LDART) – the body which organises Queenstown’s helicopter rescues – has submitted reports stating the doctor was on the ground at the time and the winch mechanism jammed rather than snapped.
The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating the incident, which occurred during a dramatic night-time search and rescue operation at Sawyer’s Creek, near Skippers Canyon.
It has deemed the incident “critical” due to the potential injury to the doctor, who was not hurt.
Senior rescuer Rupert Gardiner, 31, says: “He was a couple of metres above the ground. He was being lowered back down because he had got caught up in the trees.
“The cable snapped, completely.”
“The winch failed and he fell probably two metres down to the ground.
“We weren’t right underneath but we were quite close.
“It was unnerving, absolutely, seeing him come down. I didn’t feel like getting on a winch after that.”
Queenstown Alpine Cliff Rescue senior trainer Chris Prudden, who didn’t attend, adds: “I was told there was a complete failure, the cable let go and he fell to the ground.
“The other statement I heard was that if he was higher he would have been dead.”
The rescue operation was launched to save a Christchurch hunter with life-threatening injuries.
The 30-year-old had suf***fered a compound fracture of the left femur falling from a waterfall – which means the broken bone had pierced through the skin.
His friend raised the alarm and a Southern Lakes Heli*copters Squirrel air*craft, piloted by experienced rescue pilot Richard ‘Hannibal’ Hayes, flew in from Te Anau.
The Te Anau chopper – the nearest with a winch covering the Queenstown area – arrived on scene, near Crystal Hut about 3km from Skippers Bridge, at midnight on October 23.
It flew back to its Te Anau base after the winch failed to fit a replacement and returned about an hour later to extract the casualty and doctor from the difficult terrain.
LDART has submitted reports to the CAA, the Department of Labour and the Accident Compensation Corporation.
Tony Hill, LDART executive secretary, says: “It is quite clear in the report, which the doctor completed, that he didn’t drop to the ground.
“They had lowered him back to the ground so they could move the helicopter more directly above to stop the pendulum effect.
“The next thing the winch malfunctioned so they weren’t able to pull them back up. At this stage they were on the ground.
“I’m totally comfortable with the comments that the cable didn’t snap and the doctor didn’t fall.
“The cable did not snap. It won’t snap – it’s bloody thick. That’s absolutely in**correct. The winch mech*anism failed.
“I wasn’t there and I’m only telling you what has gone to Government. So if he wants to dispute that he’ll have to take it up with the doctor.
“For his own privacy he has asked not to be named.”
Hill says Hayes, who was unavailable for comment, is the most qualified rescue pilot in New Zealand with 40 years’ experience and was supported by an experienced winch man.
Lloyd Matheson, Southern Lakes operations manager, says: “I’m not in a position to make any comment to any media if there is an official investigation underway.
“I’ll leave it to the CAA to deal with.”
The winch has been taken to Auckland for tests.
The casualty, stabilised by the doctor and given morphine for pain, eventually arrived at Southland Hospital at 5am the next morning – 10 hours after the fall. He’s believed to have undergone surgery and is recovering well.
Three members of the Queenstown-based Alpine Cliff Rescue team assisted in the operation.
Rescuers claim a doctor was dropped when a helicopter winch failed during an operation to save an injured hunter.
Members of the Queenstown Alpine Cliff Rescue team say the medic was a few metres above the ground when the cable on the winch snapped. Any higher and he could have been killed, they say.
Their version of events contradicts the official report submitted to authorities.
Lakes District Air Rescue Trust (LDART) – the body which organises Queenstown’s helicopter rescues – has submitted reports stating the doctor was on the ground at the time and the winch mechanism jammed rather than snapped.
The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating the incident, which occurred during a dramatic night-time search and rescue operation at Sawyer’s Creek, near Skippers Canyon.
It has deemed the incident “critical” due to the potential injury to the doctor, who was not hurt.
Senior rescuer Rupert Gardiner, 31, says: “He was a couple of metres above the ground. He was being lowered back down because he had got caught up in the trees.
“The cable snapped, completely.”
“The winch failed and he fell probably two metres down to the ground.
“We weren’t right underneath but we were quite close.
“It was unnerving, absolutely, seeing him come down. I didn’t feel like getting on a winch after that.”
Queenstown Alpine Cliff Rescue senior trainer Chris Prudden, who didn’t attend, adds: “I was told there was a complete failure, the cable let go and he fell to the ground.
“The other statement I heard was that if he was higher he would have been dead.”
The rescue operation was launched to save a Christchurch hunter with life-threatening injuries.
The 30-year-old had suf***fered a compound fracture of the left femur falling from a waterfall – which means the broken bone had pierced through the skin.
His friend raised the alarm and a Southern Lakes Heli*copters Squirrel air*craft, piloted by experienced rescue pilot Richard ‘Hannibal’ Hayes, flew in from Te Anau.
The Te Anau chopper – the nearest with a winch covering the Queenstown area – arrived on scene, near Crystal Hut about 3km from Skippers Bridge, at midnight on October 23.
It flew back to its Te Anau base after the winch failed to fit a replacement and returned about an hour later to extract the casualty and doctor from the difficult terrain.
LDART has submitted reports to the CAA, the Department of Labour and the Accident Compensation Corporation.
Tony Hill, LDART executive secretary, says: “It is quite clear in the report, which the doctor completed, that he didn’t drop to the ground.
“They had lowered him back to the ground so they could move the helicopter more directly above to stop the pendulum effect.
“The next thing the winch malfunctioned so they weren’t able to pull them back up. At this stage they were on the ground.
“I’m totally comfortable with the comments that the cable didn’t snap and the doctor didn’t fall.
“The cable did not snap. It won’t snap – it’s bloody thick. That’s absolutely in**correct. The winch mech*anism failed.
“I wasn’t there and I’m only telling you what has gone to Government. So if he wants to dispute that he’ll have to take it up with the doctor.
“For his own privacy he has asked not to be named.”
Hill says Hayes, who was unavailable for comment, is the most qualified rescue pilot in New Zealand with 40 years’ experience and was supported by an experienced winch man.
Lloyd Matheson, Southern Lakes operations manager, says: “I’m not in a position to make any comment to any media if there is an official investigation underway.
“I’ll leave it to the CAA to deal with.”
The winch has been taken to Auckland for tests.
The casualty, stabilised by the doctor and given morphine for pain, eventually arrived at Southland Hospital at 5am the next morning – 10 hours after the fall. He’s believed to have undergone surgery and is recovering well.
Three members of the Queenstown-based Alpine Cliff Rescue team assisted in the operation.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 17th Aug 2016 at 03:50. Reason: Add article as quote
Somewhat conflicting reports so it will be interesting to see what the real story is when the winch has been examined.
There are all sorts of failures that can occur in the mechanism including jamming and runaway out (if the braking fails) as well as electrical control issues.
The winch cable certainly shouldn't snap unless it has been seriously overstressed - although a short fall with an abrupt deceleration can shock load it. This is why the winchman should be winched upwards from the cabin before then being winched out to the casualty (rather than dropping off the doorstep or sill) and it tests the integrity of the cable and harness before committing the winchman to a vertical descent.
Winching through trees is tricky at the best of times but more so at night - however, given the nature of the injury, it seems clear this was the best course of action.
There are all sorts of failures that can occur in the mechanism including jamming and runaway out (if the braking fails) as well as electrical control issues.
The winch cable certainly shouldn't snap unless it has been seriously overstressed - although a short fall with an abrupt deceleration can shock load it. This is why the winchman should be winched upwards from the cabin before then being winched out to the casualty (rather than dropping off the doorstep or sill) and it tests the integrity of the cable and harness before committing the winchman to a vertical descent.
Winching through trees is tricky at the best of times but more so at night - however, given the nature of the injury, it seems clear this was the best course of action.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Somewhat conflicting reports so it will be interesting to see what the real story is when the winch has been examined.
15th December 2011
Sorry John, I didn't note that - are there any links to the outcome of any investigation?
I can't find it on the NZ CAA website and accident/incident register.
I can't find it on the NZ CAA website and accident/incident register.
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crab, it didn't snap. what did someone say about trusting witnesses versions of events a few days ago. even "professionals" can get the story totally wrong. An AD or safety note or something came out from CAA. i think the winch seized, or something.
Funny that the doctor said he didn't drop, but the witnesses are certain about what they saw....
Funny that the doctor said he didn't drop, but the witnesses are certain about what they saw....
The incident was on the 23rd October 2011 at midnight, but there seems no history of a report or an investigation: CAA Occurrence briefs - Accidents in 2011
There doesn't seem to be any Incident report, I realise the link is to accidents.
Reading between the lines, if the cable jammed and was then cut with the doctor on the ground, uninformed and alarmist bystanders could then assume that the 'cable on the winch snapped'. Probably destined to be one of life's mysteries, unless someone from Te Anau is able to enlighten us!
There doesn't seem to be any Incident report, I realise the link is to accidents.
Reading between the lines, if the cable jammed and was then cut with the doctor on the ground, uninformed and alarmist bystanders could then assume that the 'cable on the winch snapped'. Probably destined to be one of life's mysteries, unless someone from Te Anau is able to enlighten us!
Back to the original thread - Catch 22.
The reason there is more winching done is that the size of the aircraft has increased to the point where there is more at risk trying to land or it physically can't land due to its size and downwash.
The reason there is more winching done is that the size of the aircraft has increased to the point where there is more at risk trying to land or it physically can't land due to its size and downwash.