Risks of helicopter winching?
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Dick, as the Crab and others have mentioned, continued practice and more practice is the key. I operate a 139 in one of the hottest countries in the world (+49 yesterday) and there isn't another helicopter I'd prefer to use. OEI is always a consideration when winching but with good SOPs and a well trained crew using real time information presented to the pilots, most risks can be mitigated. Hovering OEI is not normally an option in the hot summers here but is very often possible in the cooler months after burning off a bit of fuel.
Thread Starter
Yes. All good commonsense here.
But it still concerns me where winching takes place when not really necessary .
Hopefully all the issues discussed here are properly considered in Australia.
But it still concerns me where winching takes place when not really necessary .
Hopefully all the issues discussed here are properly considered in Australia.
Hopefully all the issues discussed here are properly considered in Australia.
As already discussed - there is risk involved in most things, especially aviation, but the crews will hopefully have been well trained enough to balance the risks to themselves and the casualty against the operational imperatives (injuries, fuel, daylight, weather etc) and make a sensible decision. However, even with all the right boxes ticked, an essential winch operation can still go wrong.
Thread Starter
Crab. What you say really worries me .
I see winching here when the person can easily be recovered on the ground.
You state that there is a real incentive to winch to keep the contract for a winch equipped helicopter. If so a bit worrying
I see winching here when the person can easily be recovered on the ground.
You state that there is a real incentive to winch to keep the contract for a winch equipped helicopter. If so a bit worrying
Dick,
Sometimes I think you are seeing issues when they aren't there. crab@ had a wink emoticon yet you've now alluded to it worrying you. There have been conflicting reports from AW139 drivers about the OEI capability of the machine, some agreeing with and some rebutting whoever you spoke to and sparked this thread.
I think we all can see that the Australian emergency services are doing more winching than used to be the case, one reason being that there are more helicopters available to be tasked and another that generally those machines are far more capable than only ten years ago.
Personally I applaud the concept, and firmly believe that operators nowadays have far better role equipment and better trained crews than was the case. Plus they have years of experience and well constructed operating guidelines than we ever knew about.
Be thankful that they stand ready to be tasked to save lives, rather than seek to limit or remove the capability based on poor briefing or poor decision making in a minority of winch ops.
Sometimes I think you are seeing issues when they aren't there. crab@ had a wink emoticon yet you've now alluded to it worrying you. There have been conflicting reports from AW139 drivers about the OEI capability of the machine, some agreeing with and some rebutting whoever you spoke to and sparked this thread.
I think we all can see that the Australian emergency services are doing more winching than used to be the case, one reason being that there are more helicopters available to be tasked and another that generally those machines are far more capable than only ten years ago.
Personally I applaud the concept, and firmly believe that operators nowadays have far better role equipment and better trained crews than was the case. Plus they have years of experience and well constructed operating guidelines than we ever knew about.
Be thankful that they stand ready to be tasked to save lives, rather than seek to limit or remove the capability based on poor briefing or poor decision making in a minority of winch ops.
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I have been involved in rescue hoist work for over 9 years now. On a public use single engine Huey in the US. I crew the helicopters, run the hoist and ride the cable.
We were professionally trained and have a very high standard for pilots and crew. We train twice a month. We have a 90 day recurrency for all crew and pilots.
We use the best equipment available. We also do hoist rescues at night on NVG's.
Helicopter hoisting is inherently high risk. But we feel that by conducting regular training we can keep it in the high risk high frequency category. Meaning we keep our skills sharp. There is no place here for the "B" team.
We will do hoists in life threatening situations or when the risks to ground rescue personnel are too great. Others in this thread have mentioned the same thing.
We did one yesterday with a minor injury but by ground would have taken nearly a full day over difficult terrain. In fact one rescuer was injured just getting to the victim.
We have aborted numerous missions. Some we returned at first light. Others aborted for weather that never improved.
We have had some incidents. A fouled cable and a badly damaged helicopter. But no crew has been lost.
There have been fatalities in the US. Texas lost a hoist rescue tech last year. Las Vegas lost a rescue tech and within the last 2 weeks a firefighter fell to his death that was not tethered to the aircraft properly.
We were professionally trained and have a very high standard for pilots and crew. We train twice a month. We have a 90 day recurrency for all crew and pilots.
We use the best equipment available. We also do hoist rescues at night on NVG's.
Helicopter hoisting is inherently high risk. But we feel that by conducting regular training we can keep it in the high risk high frequency category. Meaning we keep our skills sharp. There is no place here for the "B" team.
We will do hoists in life threatening situations or when the risks to ground rescue personnel are too great. Others in this thread have mentioned the same thing.
We did one yesterday with a minor injury but by ground would have taken nearly a full day over difficult terrain. In fact one rescuer was injured just getting to the victim.
We have aborted numerous missions. Some we returned at first light. Others aborted for weather that never improved.
We have had some incidents. A fouled cable and a badly damaged helicopter. But no crew has been lost.
There have been fatalities in the US. Texas lost a hoist rescue tech last year. Las Vegas lost a rescue tech and within the last 2 weeks a firefighter fell to his death that was not tethered to the aircraft properly.
Lots of hot air here as usual from the misinformed. There is far more possibility of an incident attempting to land in an unsuitable area than a winch rescue by a well-trained crew who are aware of the consequences of an engine failure .
The OEI (and I have only heard of one engine failure in a 139) capability of the 139 is good provided that the pilot has some idea of what will happen OEI. The result will be either no effect and the winch can be completed OEI, a flyaway that will involve some height loss or a committed landing to whatever lies beneath the helicopter. These can be calculated fairly accurately using environmental considerations, the PI figure, the Perf Data drop down height loss and pilot experience.
Crew judgement on the options of landing vs winching, a good pre-winch briefing of crew actions during an engine failure and good situational awareness makes for as safe a winch as possible.
Of course there is no substitute for experience and constant training. Our operation completes 2 hours training per crew every day and this usually involves winching day and night to decks, cliffs, wets or drums. OEI hover can be replicated well in the 139 simulator and we make good use of it as part of 6 monthly OPC training.
The OEI (and I have only heard of one engine failure in a 139) capability of the 139 is good provided that the pilot has some idea of what will happen OEI. The result will be either no effect and the winch can be completed OEI, a flyaway that will involve some height loss or a committed landing to whatever lies beneath the helicopter. These can be calculated fairly accurately using environmental considerations, the PI figure, the Perf Data drop down height loss and pilot experience.
Crew judgement on the options of landing vs winching, a good pre-winch briefing of crew actions during an engine failure and good situational awareness makes for as safe a winch as possible.
Of course there is no substitute for experience and constant training. Our operation completes 2 hours training per crew every day and this usually involves winching day and night to decks, cliffs, wets or drums. OEI hover can be replicated well in the 139 simulator and we make good use of it as part of 6 monthly OPC training.
Are there any territories where SAR Technical Crew (as UK CAA call them) is a licensed aviation trade?
What are the pros and cons of such an approach?
What are the pros and cons of such an approach?
Lots of hot air here as usual from the misinformed.
Just stating a fact Crab.
Maybe everyone does not warrant a helicopter ride......
If we are called to assist a casualty in a spot without an obvious landing site the choice is: do we take vaulable time to find somewhere to land and leave the paramedic to struggle to reach them by foot or do we stay at a safe height and winch?
If we have an incident whilst winching then I will be asked why I did not find somewhere suitable to land. If we have an incident trying to land in a hostile area then I will be asked why I did not winch. The casualty might have severe internal injuries - or they might have a dislocated thumb. We do not know.
I am paid to do whatever I can to rescue or deliver medical assistance to a survivor in whatever way we, as a crew, decide. In as safe a way as possible.
Well, if you are typical of the brave new world of UK SAR then I am very happy not to be part of it and rather pity the people you work with - this was a reasonable thread with a good flow of information before you waded in with your opening insult.
I do not comment here very often and only if I have something relevant to say on a subject of which I am qualified to comment. Today that is commenting as an experienced and current SAR 139 pilot.
There are comments on the lack of 139 EOI hover performance here by people have never been in a 139 - or flown SAR. I do not comment to gain popularity points.
I am sure that you have been waiting for the brave new world of UK SAR to fall apart but we are doing just fine without you Crab.
There are comments on the lack of 139 EOI hover performance here by people have never been in a 139 - or flown SAR. I do not comment to gain popularity points.
I am sure that you have been waiting for the brave new world of UK SAR to fall apart but we are doing just fine without you Crab.
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Hold on for a moment, will you, chaps?
I'll just dash down the road to get a packet of crisps, a bottle of beer and sort my cushions out.
How did humanity cope before winching became to be seen as a twice-weekly necessity, such as it seems to be around my way?
Internal injuries or a dislocated thumb?
Right, well get that diagnosis sorted before you put other people's lives at risk, please.
Winching operations with a Bristol Sycamore - I'm told that was interesting.
I'll just dash down the road to get a packet of crisps, a bottle of beer and sort my cushions out.
How did humanity cope before winching became to be seen as a twice-weekly necessity, such as it seems to be around my way?
Internal injuries or a dislocated thumb?
Right, well get that diagnosis sorted before you put other people's lives at risk, please.
Winching operations with a Bristol Sycamore - I'm told that was interesting.
I do not comment here very often and only if I have something relevant to say on a subject of which I am qualified to comment.
instead you came across as the big FIGJAM - which is rather pathetic since there were comments from others (not just me) who were doing winching while you were still dreaming of being a SAR pilot.
I am well aware the UKSAR world is doing fine without me - how many friends do you think I have in it and where do you think I found the info on winching in the 139?
Winching operations with a Bristol Sycamore - I'm told that was interesting.
They then proceeded to base where the survivor was off loaded, the Sycamore was flown back to the crewman, who was sunning himself in the dinghy, he was winched up by the pilot and they all went home.
I had time on the Sycamore but fortunately not winching.