24th Feb 2016: EC 135 crash in northern germany
Thread Starter
24th Feb 2016: EC 135 crash in northern germany
Sad news.
A EC135 of the german federal police crashed at about 20:00 LT in the northern part of germany, about 2nm east of their homebase Fuhlendorf. Two fatalities and one with serious injuries.
Helikopter-Absturz ? Zwei Tote und ein Schwerverletzter / Schleswig-Holstein / Aktuelle Nachrichten Schleswig-Holstein / News - KN - Kieler Nachrichten
http://www.bild.de/news/2016/news/ne...6906.bild.html
The pilot transmitted an unreadable call short prior the accident. The wreck looks like an almost vertical impact
skadi
A EC135 of the german federal police crashed at about 20:00 LT in the northern part of germany, about 2nm east of their homebase Fuhlendorf. Two fatalities and one with serious injuries.
Helikopter-Absturz ? Zwei Tote und ein Schwerverletzter / Schleswig-Holstein / Aktuelle Nachrichten Schleswig-Holstein / News - KN - Kieler Nachrichten
http://www.bild.de/news/2016/news/ne...6906.bild.html
The pilot transmitted an unreadable call short prior the accident. The wreck looks like an almost vertical impact
skadi
Last edited by skadi; 25th Feb 2016 at 20:24.
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Tragic incident and a startling photo. It looks like the rotor blades failed downwards after suffering a massive vertical impact, possibly with little rotational speed. It immediately brings another remarkably similar accident to mind.
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In Bimöhlen in Bad Bramstedt ( Kreis Segeberg ) a helicopter of the Federal Police crashed with three occupants. The 33 -year-old co-pilot and a 42 year old companion died. The 31 year old pilot suffered serious injuries, according to police, and was taken to hospital . The EC135 helicopter crashed at 20:00 and was completely destroyed. In the morning, Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière ( CDU ) was on the scene .
Machine was on training flight
" My thoughts and deepest condolences are with the families of those killed and seriously injured colleagues ," said de Maiziere on Thursday night . He is responsible as interior minister for the Federal Police . Even Prime Minister Torsten Albig expressed shock : " I am shocked by this tragedy that has two men of the Federal Police taken so suddenly and abruptly from life " , the SPD politician said this morning . " I hope that the downed pilot of the helicopter survived the disaster .
At the crash site the country Interior Minister Stefan Studt and Secretary Manuela Söller - Winkler ( both SPD ) are now located beside de Maizière .
Crash near road and soccer field
The accident site is a field only about 20 meters from a road which leads to Bimöhlen. A few hundred meters away is a football field, in use at the time of the crash. An eyewitness told NDR 1 Welle Nord : " I was surprised that the machine is flown so low without headlight. Then the helicopter crashed in a circular motion . . " Bystanders were " probably not injured " , according to police .
The machine belonged to the squadron in Fuhlendorf in Bad Bramstedt, based not far from the crash site. "The occupants of the helicopter were on a training flight and were launched in Fuhlendorf," said police spokeswoman Silke Westphal.
Was there an emergency?
In addition to the Criminal Bad Segeberg also two members of the Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation (BFU) Braunschweig arrived on the scene during the night. They find the black box, which records data of the flight and voices in the cockpit, and are now trying to reconstruct how the accident happened. In addition, they would investigate the wreck, said BFU spokesman Germout Friday on Friday morning. First, it is a matter to determine whether conclusions on the cause of the crash are possible from the location of the wreck. So one can detect whether the rotor was turning.
Whether there has been an emergency call shortly before the crash, is still open. "I can neither confirm nor deny," Westphal said. Pending final results, it will "certainly take several days.
Machine was on training flight
" My thoughts and deepest condolences are with the families of those killed and seriously injured colleagues ," said de Maiziere on Thursday night . He is responsible as interior minister for the Federal Police . Even Prime Minister Torsten Albig expressed shock : " I am shocked by this tragedy that has two men of the Federal Police taken so suddenly and abruptly from life " , the SPD politician said this morning . " I hope that the downed pilot of the helicopter survived the disaster .
At the crash site the country Interior Minister Stefan Studt and Secretary Manuela Söller - Winkler ( both SPD ) are now located beside de Maizière .
Crash near road and soccer field
The accident site is a field only about 20 meters from a road which leads to Bimöhlen. A few hundred meters away is a football field, in use at the time of the crash. An eyewitness told NDR 1 Welle Nord : " I was surprised that the machine is flown so low without headlight. Then the helicopter crashed in a circular motion . . " Bystanders were " probably not injured " , according to police .
The machine belonged to the squadron in Fuhlendorf in Bad Bramstedt, based not far from the crash site. "The occupants of the helicopter were on a training flight and were launched in Fuhlendorf," said police spokeswoman Silke Westphal.
Was there an emergency?
In addition to the Criminal Bad Segeberg also two members of the Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation (BFU) Braunschweig arrived on the scene during the night. They find the black box, which records data of the flight and voices in the cockpit, and are now trying to reconstruct how the accident happened. In addition, they would investigate the wreck, said BFU spokesman Germout Friday on Friday morning. First, it is a matter to determine whether conclusions on the cause of the crash are possible from the location of the wreck. So one can detect whether the rotor was turning.
Whether there has been an emergency call shortly before the crash, is still open. "I can neither confirm nor deny," Westphal said. Pending final results, it will "certainly take several days.
Last edited by John R81; 26th Feb 2016 at 11:41.
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More pics here
In the article they mention that the helicopter participated in a special forces training exercise, supporting the ground unit with their IR camera. They are said to have been hovering in 120-130 m prior coming down. They've been airborne for @ 50 minutes and were heading home to the nearby homebase.
According to the BFU (German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation) weather was no issue.
In the article they mention that the helicopter participated in a special forces training exercise, supporting the ground unit with their IR camera. They are said to have been hovering in 120-130 m prior coming down. They've been airborne for @ 50 minutes and were heading home to the nearby homebase.
According to the BFU (German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation) weather was no issue.
Last edited by Spunk; 26th Feb 2016 at 13:36.
German EC-135 Autorotation Training - Lack of?
Weren't the Germans the ones that stopped autorotation training on the EC-135 as dangerous/damaging to the aircraft? We should expect an increase of losses in the U.S.Army due to similar incidents now that they train on on the EC-145.
The Sultan
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That is correct.
This issue only occurs if pilots can not handle an autorotation well (like Students do).
The EC135 and EC145 can autorotate quiet well, but the margin for errors is not big-in a "real" auto, this would not matter, as it has no effect on the autorotation itself......
This issue only occurs if pilots can not handle an autorotation well (like Students do).
The EC135 and EC145 can autorotate quiet well, but the margin for errors is not big-in a "real" auto, this would not matter, as it has no effect on the autorotation itself......
This issue only occurs if pilots can not handle an autorotation well (like Students do).
Students are those who are training for a PPL. Pilots training onto A/C like the 135/145 for police/EMS should have a few hours under their belt!
Not a shot at you Hueyracer, but at the person who did away with autorotation training!!! Save a bit on training but pay a lot for an accident and not to mention the loss of life.
When I did my training onto twins - when I asked the instructor for a few auto's, he said what for...
You won't do an auto, you have a spare engine to fly on!Because I don't want to be a rock falling out of the sky!!!
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Totally on your site there (where are you flying now?)...
But the margin for errors (that leads to a damage on the rotor blades) is so small, that the instructors do not have enough time to jump in...and what good does it do if a military pilot never flies a full on auto to the ground?
Ab-initio training on twins does not make any sense at all....but thats a whole different topic....
Curious to find out whether a technical snag, or pilots error was the cause of the above mentioned accident?
But the margin for errors (that leads to a damage on the rotor blades) is so small, that the instructors do not have enough time to jump in...and what good does it do if a military pilot never flies a full on auto to the ground?
Ab-initio training on twins does not make any sense at all....but thats a whole different topic....
Curious to find out whether a technical snag, or pilots error was the cause of the above mentioned accident?
Thread Starter
Weren't the Germans the ones that stopped autorotation training on the EC-135 as dangerous/damaging to the aircraft? We should expect an increase of losses in the U.S.Army due to similar incidents now that they train on on the EC-145.
The Sultan
The Sultan
skadi
Thread Starter
The aircraft was equipped with a cockpit voice recorder and a HUMS. That might help to find out what happened.
skadi
Looks for me like the attempt to do an autorotation. A vertical impact without any airspeed, low rotor speed and without any turning on a field. Airframe vertical collapse. No debris wide distributed around. Fenestron, tail boom and airframe in a direct line. Flat skids but still attached to the frame. No slip marks on ground. Pilot was able to control the a/c at least in bank and direction. But wasn't able to break the rate of descent on the last meters.
May be the known Rad Alt failure due to the shed bus problem without generators after the loss or the switch off of the engines. Can't see good chances to open the very unfortunately placed shed bus switch in pitch black night and dark cockpit while wearing NVGs autorotating from a few hundred feets. Additionally the 2D view through the NVGs.
But thats the final stage of this accident, there must be something before.
May be the known Rad Alt failure due to the shed bus problem without generators after the loss or the switch off of the engines. Can't see good chances to open the very unfortunately placed shed bus switch in pitch black night and dark cockpit while wearing NVGs autorotating from a few hundred feets. Additionally the 2D view through the NVGs.
But thats the final stage of this accident, there must be something before.
Last edited by tecpilot; 27th Feb 2016 at 12:42.
In 2001, a certain UK operator suggested to Eurocopter that they might like to move the Shed Bus switch to a position more suitable for rapid operation in the event of a double engine failure. The response was that it was inconceivable that a double engine failure could occur!
The switch stayed where it was.
The switch stayed where it was.
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I am just guessing now-but to me, it does not look like an autorotation gone wrong....it looks more like VRS....
Maybe they tried a "high hover", then started to descend, got into VRS-and could not recover?
The investigation will show.......
Maybe they tried a "high hover", then started to descend, got into VRS-and could not recover?
The investigation will show.......
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I don't buy high-hover then VRS. That would mean the engines are operating and the rotor would be at full speed at impact. Upon impact, and you can see the effect of that on the structure, the blades would have contacted parts of the machine / the ground, shattered, and fragments would have flown for a considerable distance.
The condition now of the rotors suggest to me a very low energy state at the time of impact.
The condition now of the rotors suggest to me a very low energy state at the time of impact.
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Have the UK police fitted cockpit voice recorders and HUMS following the Glasgow crash? It was a AAIB recommendation I believe.
How many EC135's have crashed since they were introduced?
How many EC135's have crashed since they were introduced?