Hughes 300 questions.
The 300 is a good reliable trainer. The problem is that it teaches out of date technique - airspeed is related to pitch attitude. All more modern helicopters, including the R22 require the attitude change to accelerate/decelerate, then re adopt pretty much the original attitude. The biggest problem operating the R22 in reality is its limited payload. The current generation of pilots are bigger and heavier, leading to C of G problems and having to seriously limit the fuel load.
The best trainer now is the R44 as with two up it has no fuel load limitations and is totally representative of modern helicopters. Obviously the ideal is to go straight to the 206, but is seriously expensive.
The best trainer now is the R44 as with two up it has no fuel load limitations and is totally representative of modern helicopters. Obviously the ideal is to go straight to the 206, but is seriously expensive.
Learning correct power control is never out of date.
In forward flight, attitude IS airspeed once accelerations have been resolved. Try this exercise with your students:
From level flight and using the same power setting, set an attiude to climb at the expense of airspeed. Leave the disk exaclty where it is during the climb. It will arrive at a particular aispeed +/- a knot or two. Excepting extreme Hp and Hd values, it will always give this speed for attitude selected.
It's important to show students this or they will keep staring at the airspeed indicator trying to get a desired airspeed. And sometimes chase it. Seeing the TPP is especially useful for teaching at ab initio level. H300 is great for this but very limited in application outside of training: R22; R44; B206 etc much better as private get-about machines.
R44 responds too slowly to accelerations to be a good ab initio trainer. It also has too much power (2 up). Learning that you can't always do everything a helicopter is capable of due to power limits is another important lesson (hence excercises covering performance).
From level flight and using the same power setting, set an attiude to climb at the expense of airspeed. Leave the disk exaclty where it is during the climb. It will arrive at a particular aispeed +/- a knot or two. Excepting extreme Hp and Hd values, it will always give this speed for attitude selected.
It's important to show students this or they will keep staring at the airspeed indicator trying to get a desired airspeed. And sometimes chase it. Seeing the TPP is especially useful for teaching at ab initio level. H300 is great for this but very limited in application outside of training: R22; R44; B206 etc much better as private get-about machines.
R44 responds too slowly to accelerations to be a good ab initio trainer. It also has too much power (2 up). Learning that you can't always do everything a helicopter is capable of due to power limits is another important lesson (hence excercises covering performance).
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Acceleration or deceleration are related to pitch attitude. Steady state Airspeed in the end is related to cyclic position (at any particular c of g) in current generation helicopters.
In a 300 the best way of showing a student the airspeed/power/attitude is the following
Hold up your hand so it is horizontal. Hold 4 fingers out. Top of fingers on TPP bottom on horizon. This will give you an approx 50 kt attitude ( I know this is a generalisation but it works )with 18" of power. 3 finger gap and and mp
20" will give you 60kts. 2 finger gap and 22" is 70 kts, 1 finger and 24" will give you 80kts
Although this does depend upon ones height how big ones hands are it does work. It gives students an idea of the attitude to set and the power is easy to set so they only have to concentrate on attitude
Hold up your hand so it is horizontal. Hold 4 fingers out. Top of fingers on TPP bottom on horizon. This will give you an approx 50 kt attitude ( I know this is a generalisation but it works )with 18" of power. 3 finger gap and and mp
20" will give you 60kts. 2 finger gap and 22" is 70 kts, 1 finger and 24" will give you 80kts
Although this does depend upon ones height how big ones hands are it does work. It gives students an idea of the attitude to set and the power is easy to set so they only have to concentrate on attitude
I know a lot of people use that method and that it works well. But I couldn`t get my hand to fit between the horizon and the TPP and gave up after catching my fingers in the rotor. 
"Steady state Airspeed in the end is related to cyclic position"
Not sure about that. An AFCS can make actuator adjustments in the background which affect disk attitude but leave the stick where it is. So how reliable is that rule of thumb?
And CofG and stick position: if you're snappy about explaining flapping and control range and your students can digest that whilst flying.... personally I'd go for the KISS rule (principally for my sake, I stress to add).
"Steady state Airspeed in the end is related to cyclic position"
Not sure about that. An AFCS can make actuator adjustments in the background which affect disk attitude but leave the stick where it is. So how reliable is that rule of thumb?
And CofG and stick position: if you're snappy about explaining flapping and control range and your students can digest that whilst flying.... personally I'd go for the KISS rule (principally for my sake, I stress to add).
Last edited by Torquetalk; 28th Nov 2015 at 12:01.
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Hughes 500. Indeed In the era of Sycamore, Whirlwind, Hiller, H300 B47etc,the horizon attitude for each airspeed was the generally agreed instructional technique. However with the advent of the 206, R22, R44 the design requirement was for a level cabin over most of the cruise speed range. This meant that the the teaching had to change to "select an accelerative/decelerative attitude with reference to the horizon position in the windscreen, overcome the flap back with the cyclic and approaching the desired airspeed, reselect the attitude back to where it was and note the new cyclic position".
There is a design requirement now I believe for a positive pitch trim gradient with change of airspeed and indeed this is often achieved artificially via the AFCS as this is easier than the probably more tedious business of trying to achieve it aerodynamically. I seem to remember first experiencing this in the S76A.
There is a design requirement now I believe for a positive pitch trim gradient with change of airspeed and indeed this is often achieved artificially via the AFCS as this is easier than the probably more tedious business of trying to achieve it aerodynamically. I seem to remember first experiencing this in the S76A.
Fossil
Really well that doesn't work in a Hughes 500, 355,206 or 341.
Or have i read your post wrong ? How can the airframe hold the same attitude for every speed range as the disc has to project more air rearwards and downwards to hold a faster speed so the nose must be closer to the horizon.
Having just spent 20 hours in the past 3 days flying with 650kgs on a longline under a 500 at 60 kts i can assure you that the disc is nowhere near the horizon compared to a 130 kt cruise. The 500 is the same age as a 206 !
Really well that doesn't work in a Hughes 500, 355,206 or 341.
Or have i read your post wrong ? How can the airframe hold the same attitude for every speed range as the disc has to project more air rearwards and downwards to hold a faster speed so the nose must be closer to the horizon.
Having just spent 20 hours in the past 3 days flying with 650kgs on a longline under a 500 at 60 kts i can assure you that the disc is nowhere near the horizon compared to a 130 kt cruise. The 500 is the same age as a 206 !
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The disc is tilted further forward but the increased download on the horizontal tail surface as speed increases maintains the fuselage in approximately the same attitude.
The disc is tilted further forward but the increased download on the horizontal tail surface as speed increases maintains the fuselage in approximately the same attitude.
Wrong.
In the 206 there are distinct attitudes for 40, 60, 90 or 110 kt. The attitude is substantially constant for a given speed, whether level, climbing or descending. I can fly to within 5kt and level, with the ASI covered up, simply by selecting a known power and a known attitude.
Power plus attitude = performance.
That equation cannot work if the attitude is always the same no matter what speed you fly.
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I really like the replies here and have let the guy I work for know about this site and this conversation.
He and I have known each other since school days, he went into business and I just fu.ked around in aviation all my life.
When he asked me to work with him on this project of building a remote retreat lodge for businesses to use I agreed with the prevision that he buys a helicopter for me to play with.
We have a Husky on amphibs and a Cessna 180 on floats at the moment but they really are not real flying machines.
My first choice was and still is a nice Bell 206 and we will train a couple of young guys to fly it as we are not interested in doing any real work at this stage of our lives, hell I just turned 80 last month and work is the last thing in my mind.
Anyhow this is great stuff and I appreciate your help.
Chuck E.
He and I have known each other since school days, he went into business and I just fu.ked around in aviation all my life.
When he asked me to work with him on this project of building a remote retreat lodge for businesses to use I agreed with the prevision that he buys a helicopter for me to play with.
We have a Husky on amphibs and a Cessna 180 on floats at the moment but they really are not real flying machines.
My first choice was and still is a nice Bell 206 and we will train a couple of young guys to fly it as we are not interested in doing any real work at this stage of our lives, hell I just turned 80 last month and work is the last thing in my mind.
Anyhow this is great stuff and I appreciate your help.
Chuck E.
DayVFR
the Air Speed Indicator is a primary instrument that should be used as the 'stick position indicator'. Staring outside at the horizon slicing the wind shield is the wrong technique in relation to air-speed. Sure it works fine over a dead flat horizon, but it is still the wrong technique. Try that in serious Mountainous terrain & I guarantee You that You WILL loose vital airspeed & likely to die unless You have huge reserves of power. 
Ask Yourself what speed do I want??? Then adjust the stick position accordingly; based on the ASI information (only) 
All other Visual Flying information should be based only on what You see outside 
after 35yrs flying 10yrs in extreme Mountain terrain You can be rest assured that this the only safe technique for airspeed control!!!
Ask Yourself what speed do I want??? Then adjust the stick position accordingly; based on the ASI information (only) All other Visual Flying information should be based only on what You see outside after 35yrs flying 10yrs in extreme Mountain terrain You can be rest assured that this the only safe technique for airspeed control!!!
Last edited by Vertical Freedom; 29th Nov 2015 at 03:26.
VF
Yes for flying where you do but this is all about teaching people from abinitio in a training helicopter and not in the Himalaya's
In a 300 you can cover up one of the following MP,as,vsi and tell what the other is doing
Yes for flying where you do but this is all about teaching people from abinitio in a training helicopter and not in the Himalaya's
In a 300 you can cover up one of the following MP,as,vsi and tell what the other is doing
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Training Helicopters
he best trainer now is the R44 as with two up it has no fuel load limitations and is totally representative of modern helicopters. Obviously the ideal is to go straight to the 206, but is seriously expensive.
First, let's talk about teaching in a piston vs a turbine:
1) Less chance of smoking the engine during start. Yes, they eventually need to learn to start the turbine, but arguably smarter to do this during transition when they have a little more experience under their belt. I might feel this way a bit because the first 206 I flew had a lousy battery and every start was exciting!
2) Instant throttle response of the piston is pretty nice for a primary student who is still learning to control the aircraft and hasn't learned to think ahead of the aircraft a bit. It's also nice for the instructor fixing the student's mistakes. It means the instructor can let the student go a little further before he needs to get on the controls - he doesn't need to be quite as conservative when it comes to engine management.
3) I would say the limitations of the piston are more forgiving than the turbine. Not only temp and torque, but having to watch 3 power gauges instead of 1 increases the workload of the student. Again, they do eventually need to learn it, but when they have 50-60 hours it's a lot easier than when they have 5-6...
Advantages of the R44 vs the -300 or R22:
4) With the boosted controls the R44 controls feel very similar to the 206. And of course you can teach boost off with the R44.
5) The R44 flies more like a 206 than the smaller machines. The response of the aircraft due to it's slightly larger size is much closer to a 206, the larger diameter rotor feels a lot more like a 206 coming out of confined areas, and the power available is closer to the 206.
6) Unlike the -300, learning to hover the R44 prepares you for hovering the 206. The response (especially to a new pilot) of a two bladed is quite different than an articulated system (the -300 is easier, so you could make the case that teaching in the -300 will make it easier to learn to hover and then the pilot can get used to the dynamics of a teetering system during transition).
7) The R44 speed is more in line with the 206 than either the -300 or -22. With just hover power settings you can be doing 100 knots on downwind. It's a very clean fast machine in the pattern.
8) Hover autos and touchdown autos are much closer to the 206 than either the -300 or -22. Well, hover autos in a piston are never going to be like in a turbine, but you have quite a bit of inertia for the hover auto in the R44. Touchdowns are a piece of cake - very similar to the 206 but with the advantage of being able to power recover at any point (seriously - at 12 inches with 70% RPM you can crank the throttle on and avoid hitting the ground if it suddenly starts to look bad).
Other benefits to the R44 vs just training in the 206:
9) You won't bang up your nice 206. Nobody will care if you bang the R44 around a bit! :-)
10) Probably cheaper to insure the R44 for primary instruction than the 206
11) In the USA significantly cheaper to operate, but that might not be the case elsewhere.
