Sad incident at Palamar today
Thread Starter
the most likely cause is head injury leading to unconsciousness.
Explain the lack of engine shutdown another way if you prefer.
Explain the lack of engine shutdown another way if you prefer.
ceptripetal g:
I count 10revs per 12 sec
so that's about 5 Radians per second
5^2=25
times by the radius guessing 2 meters?
gives accn 50m/s^2 or 5g
enough to incapacitate the pilot?
I count 10revs per 12 sec
so that's about 5 Radians per second
5^2=25
times by the radius guessing 2 meters?
gives accn 50m/s^2 or 5g
enough to incapacitate the pilot?
Gordy: "Where's the autopsy report" you talk of. If you look at yourvideo in post #1, at minute 3:38, they notice blood on the door, as Aesir states in his post, too.
Thanks for the calcs- I was thinking about that this morning, on the train - 5G, not enough to kill you for a short period perhaps, but that - sustained and in persons of their age - and if it is proven - hitting the cockpit - almost certainly led to their incapacity preventing the driver from lowering the lever fully.
Do you know what is the strangest thing to come out of this? He lost control of a dynamically unstable vehicle, falling off a raised (moving?)platform causing the fragile undercarriage to collapse underneath him and STILL, the damn helo remained upright - allowing the rotors to spin. Who would have forecast the chances of the helo remaining upright, especially as it continues to beat the living daylight out of the underbelly of the a/c. In most other cases - surely the cab would have almost immediately rolled over onto its side and the rotors would have stopped instantaneously, thus stopping the sustained spin and possibly keeping both alive.
Thanks for the calcs- I was thinking about that this morning, on the train - 5G, not enough to kill you for a short period perhaps, but that - sustained and in persons of their age - and if it is proven - hitting the cockpit - almost certainly led to their incapacity preventing the driver from lowering the lever fully.
Do you know what is the strangest thing to come out of this? He lost control of a dynamically unstable vehicle, falling off a raised (moving?)platform causing the fragile undercarriage to collapse underneath him and STILL, the damn helo remained upright - allowing the rotors to spin. Who would have forecast the chances of the helo remaining upright, especially as it continues to beat the living daylight out of the underbelly of the a/c. In most other cases - surely the cab would have almost immediately rolled over onto its side and the rotors would have stopped instantaneously, thus stopping the sustained spin and possibly keeping both alive.
My thoughts too, TC. How did it stay upright and level? Surely the collective could not have stayed centered so how come the whole machine wasn't thrown on it's side, nose or tail?
TC....the last bit I fully agree with. Sod's Law can work in odd ways.
Crab....you and some others miss the point being made.
All the HSE Rules and Safety Measures taken under whatever motivation.....can be undone if there is a false underpinning caused by full compliance to related but separate rules and procedures.
We had a recent EMS crash of an AStar that resulted in an instantaneous post impact fire.
That the Crew had Helmets, Nomex Flight Suits, Leather Boots and Nomex Gloves but NO CRASH WORTHY FUEL SYSTEM...it became a fatal accident rather than a Survivable Accident.
I understand HSE is not of CAA doing necessarily....and that Aircraft Certification is not the HSE folks turf....but the two should be complimentary if it is to be applied to Aviation don't you think?
What we are talking about is a Comprehensive Approach to developing an Effective Safety Culture that must flow from the Top....down.....with feedback from the Bottom....up.
Crab....you and some others miss the point being made.
All the HSE Rules and Safety Measures taken under whatever motivation.....can be undone if there is a false underpinning caused by full compliance to related but separate rules and procedures.
We had a recent EMS crash of an AStar that resulted in an instantaneous post impact fire.
That the Crew had Helmets, Nomex Flight Suits, Leather Boots and Nomex Gloves but NO CRASH WORTHY FUEL SYSTEM...it became a fatal accident rather than a Survivable Accident.
I understand HSE is not of CAA doing necessarily....and that Aircraft Certification is not the HSE folks turf....but the two should be complimentary if it is to be applied to Aviation don't you think?
What we are talking about is a Comprehensive Approach to developing an Effective Safety Culture that must flow from the Top....down.....with feedback from the Bottom....up.
Thanks for the calcs- I was thinking about that this morning, on the train - 5G, not enough to kill you for a short period perhaps, but that - sustained and in persons of their age - and if it is proven - hitting the cockpit - almost certainly led to their incapacity preventing the driver from lowering the lever fully.
I don't think so.....but will check to see if I can find a decent account of it. I have posted some links either in this thread or another recently.
This Video is a good start.....contains some Statistics and information.
It does not give much specific information about individual crashes.
I am thinking the Seattle News Crash might have been the one you are thinking of with the Hydraulic Switch issue.
http://www.9news.com/story/news/inve...fety/30752301/
This Video is a good start.....contains some Statistics and information.
It does not give much specific information about individual crashes.
I am thinking the Seattle News Crash might have been the one you are thinking of with the Hydraulic Switch issue.
http://www.9news.com/story/news/inve...fety/30752301/
Last edited by SASless; 25th Nov 2015 at 22:55.
-5G is no huge deal for a short time. That's 5G upwards, not sideways, but I don't really see that it would make a difference. The Pitts is rated for -5G which implies that people do it from time to time. -3G to -4G is fairly unpleasant but no more than that. In an outside loop you push a sustained -3G for 10-20 seconds. It gives me a headache especially after two or three, but that's all (which is why I don't do them any more).
A more likely explanation is that the sudden yaw whacked their heads against the cabin interior. Even then though... it wouldn't be any more violent than a tumble initiation (Lomcevak etc). I've had plenty of bruises from that but I don't think it would knock you unconscious.
Of course after whirling around like that for several minutes, it's no surprise there was blood. But in the first couple of seconds..?
All very odd.
A more likely explanation is that the sudden yaw whacked their heads against the cabin interior. Even then though... it wouldn't be any more violent than a tumble initiation (Lomcevak etc). I've had plenty of bruises from that but I don't think it would knock you unconscious.
Of course after whirling around like that for several minutes, it's no surprise there was blood. But in the first couple of seconds..?
All very odd.
5g laterally is a very different thing for the human body to contend with than 5g vertically - the neck becomes the weakest link with a few pounds of mass above it - remember Formula 1 drivers have neck braces to help them cope with much lower lateral forces.
A sudden spin would force the head outwards at an rate impossible to resist unless you are built like Arnie - instant head injury and incapacitation.
A sudden spin would force the head outwards at an rate impossible to resist unless you are built like Arnie - instant head injury and incapacitation.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,572
Received 412 Likes
on
217 Posts
The aircraft was very badly over controlled during the pre-impact, failed attempts at landing. Very surprising, if he had as much experience as reports have said (25,000 hours is a very high number for a helicopter pilot).
It made me wonder if the pilot was not securely strapped in from the beginning and perhaps got thrown forwards away from his seat. I've flown with a couple of pilots in the past who have only secured their lap belt, not the shoulder straps, not something I'd ever do.
It seems to me that a lot of torque was going through those rotors for it to remain spinning so rapidly for so long. If the pilot was "doubled up" in his seat and then pinned forward by rotational forces, he would have been unable to reach the controls properly.
Obviously, all is speculation at this stage and doubt the accident investigation will discover evidence, one way or the other.
A tragedy, whatever the cause.
It made me wonder if the pilot was not securely strapped in from the beginning and perhaps got thrown forwards away from his seat. I've flown with a couple of pilots in the past who have only secured their lap belt, not the shoulder straps, not something I'd ever do.
It seems to me that a lot of torque was going through those rotors for it to remain spinning so rapidly for so long. If the pilot was "doubled up" in his seat and then pinned forward by rotational forces, he would have been unable to reach the controls properly.
Obviously, all is speculation at this stage and doubt the accident investigation will discover evidence, one way or the other.
A tragedy, whatever the cause.
Thread Starter
The reference to the 25,000 hours was supposedly on the bank website--it is not.
I think we can all agree this the pilot did not have 25,000 hours.
I think we can all agree this the pilot did not have 25,000 hours.
Are rotational forces alone at the level calculated above really enough to totally incapacitate a pilot, beyond the level to push the collective down and/or chop the throttle? I suspect that violent pitch excursions/impacts of which we saw only the first two on the video might have had a more severe effect.
Gordy,
25000 hours reference here: https://www.americanbankmontana.com/...aft-financing/
Allthough I find 25000 hours as a private pilot to be an extreme high number.... and could be a 0 too much...
Now, this was a private pilot Fixed-wing and helicopter, details can be found on FAA.gov airman info, open to anyone with a FAA license.
He was also rated on the CE550, which is the jet in the video where all goes to ****.
My bet is that he had a lot of his hours in fixed wing, and not so much in helicopters. The brand new B3e which he crashed, was reg'ed to him in October this year according to FAA. Maybe his first 350?!?
The friend that got killed was also a Private rated helicopter pilot as well, and could very well have got out and chocked the dolly without the pilot needing to shut down, if it was in fact moving about.
By the erratic over-controlling, practicing landings would be a sensible thing for this guy to do, but not on moving dollies.
25000 hours reference here: https://www.americanbankmontana.com/...aft-financing/
Allthough I find 25000 hours as a private pilot to be an extreme high number.... and could be a 0 too much...
Now, this was a private pilot Fixed-wing and helicopter, details can be found on FAA.gov airman info, open to anyone with a FAA license.
He was also rated on the CE550, which is the jet in the video where all goes to ****.
My bet is that he had a lot of his hours in fixed wing, and not so much in helicopters. The brand new B3e which he crashed, was reg'ed to him in October this year according to FAA. Maybe his first 350?!?
The friend that got killed was also a Private rated helicopter pilot as well, and could very well have got out and chocked the dolly without the pilot needing to shut down, if it was in fact moving about.
By the erratic over-controlling, practicing landings would be a sensible thing for this guy to do, but not on moving dollies.
I've flown with a couple of pilots in the past who have only secured their lap belt, not the shoulder straps,
Inertia reel lock?
I thought he whole idea of inertia reels was that they automatically lock on either the belt being pulled out quickly, or upon increased G forces acting upon them. This capability can very easily be observed or demonstrated even under normal operating conditions (unlike air bags where the G switch settings are so high that only a real accident should activate it).
None of the inertia reel seat belts I have ever seen in civilian aircraft or cars had a manual override lock.
None of the inertia reel seat belts I have ever seen in civilian aircraft or cars had a manual override lock.
Last edited by Hot and Hi; 27th Nov 2015 at 03:46. Reason: Grammar
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: the great white north
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The more i look at this accident and thread, the more i shake my head.
Even if this clown had managed to land on an unchocked dolly, what did he think would happen when he rolled the twist grip (it is a twist grip in a B3e) to the idle position. There is a very good chance that the whole works would start spinning on the ground causing an accident anyway. The flight manual states clearly to exercise caution on slippery surfaces and i can't imagine something more slippery than wheels on a hard surface!
Even if this clown had managed to land on an unchocked dolly, what did he think would happen when he rolled the twist grip (it is a twist grip in a B3e) to the idle position. There is a very good chance that the whole works would start spinning on the ground causing an accident anyway. The flight manual states clearly to exercise caution on slippery surfaces and i can't imagine something more slippery than wheels on a hard surface!
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: florida
Age: 58
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you look at the video in quarter speed (in youtube in the cog setting in bottom right of vid u can slow it down) you can clearly see him tag the tail twice but it is not enough to snap the tail. if you go frame by frame you can
see after both contacts the tail is intact. also.. for those that fly a-stars we all know how strong that stinger is. if you go frame by frame it looks like the tail and TR are intact but there is such a strong forward cyclic correction that it gets into an extreme nose down attitude and may have had a MR stike? look at the video in slow mo and see what u see. i orig thought it was the TR becoming inop from the strike and that causing the spin but really doesn't look like it when viewed in slow-mo.
see after both contacts the tail is intact. also.. for those that fly a-stars we all know how strong that stinger is. if you go frame by frame it looks like the tail and TR are intact but there is such a strong forward cyclic correction that it gets into an extreme nose down attitude and may have had a MR stike? look at the video in slow mo and see what u see. i orig thought it was the TR becoming inop from the strike and that causing the spin but really doesn't look like it when viewed in slow-mo.
Coming soon
https://youtu.be/Ip_WqX8nmKY
Takes away some of the required skills - interesting engine off landings !
Takes away some of the required skills - interesting engine off landings !
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fuel Tanks
Sasless,
Regarding older design and safety standards: If you take a look at the new EC 130 T2, the fuel tank is a totally different animal. The certification testing included a full tank drop test of 80 ft.
This system is going to be available on new B3 variants as well (and retrofittable by Service Bulletin on the B3)
When added to the Energy Attenuating seats that are standard, the aircraft has evolved greatly during it's life regarding occupant safety.
I am very interested to see how many operators carry out the upgrade.......
Regards,
Rigidhead
Regarding older design and safety standards: If you take a look at the new EC 130 T2, the fuel tank is a totally different animal. The certification testing included a full tank drop test of 80 ft.
This system is going to be available on new B3 variants as well (and retrofittable by Service Bulletin on the B3)
When added to the Energy Attenuating seats that are standard, the aircraft has evolved greatly during it's life regarding occupant safety.
I am very interested to see how many operators carry out the upgrade.......
Regards,
Rigidhead
