PPRuNe Forums


Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th Aug 2015, 07:45   #21 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Finland
Posts: 67
COPTERLINE 103 "in a few seconds"

No surprise, it took ten years and two days from Copterline flight 103 accidents.
This did not come as a new issue after at least not to the manufacturer.
Transportation category helicopter can not come unflyable with any single failure.
This design defect is known to everyone if you just want to look the truth in the eye.
I'm sorry that once again innocent people were lost.
Copterline 103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2015, 08:02   #22 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Phuket
Posts: 295
Piloteock, are you serious? I have never heard of that policy before. (Not being able to open cowlings) what is the reasoning behind this? Is somebody afraid that a well trained pilot does not know how to close a,cowling or is somebody afraid a pilot may find questionable practices? I too am flying in Nigeria, (does not matter where really) however I will always look. It is just the proffesional thing to do. By the way, I have been flying since 1974. I always look.
before landing check list is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2015, 08:31   #23 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: France
Age: 51
Posts: 9
Does anyone have the weather from the time of the incident?
helialan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2015, 14:02   #24 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Finland
Posts: 67
METAR/SPECI from DNMM, Lagos / Ikeja (Nigeria).

Sa 12/08/2015 16:00-> metar dnmm 121600z 20008kt 160v250 9999 sct012 28/22 q1014 nosig=

sa 12/08/2015 15:00-> metar dnmm 121500z 21011kt 150v270 9999 bkn012 28/22 q1014 nosig=

sa 12/08/2015 14:00-> metar dnmm 121400z 20008kt 160v250 9999 bkn012 29/22 q1015 nosig=

sa 12/08/2015 13:00-> metar dnmm 121300z 20005kt 150v260 9999 bkn012 few020cb 28/23 q1016 nosig=
Copterline 103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2015, 21:23   #25 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: stateside
Posts: 157
Pilonrock..
Actually it's the other way around. Most pilots couldn't be bothered looking in the cowls when I was there. I also never once saw a pilot on the cabin roof of even a 412 where there's lots of access and space to stand.
How many Bristow pilots did a walk around after the flight? None, never saw one.
It's assumed to be an engineering task
That's been my general experience too, the larger the helicopter the less pilots look it over.
TukTuk BoomBoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2015, 21:30   #26 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 49
Posts: 35
Absolutely serious

I agree with Nescafe 100% this business of flying in IMC condition on a VFR flight plan must stop immediately. There is no way that this would fly in any other part of the world ! so why Nigeria?

In the morning or at shift change cowlings are left open by engineering so the pilot can climb around and have a look. then engineering can close it up . This is the way its done every other place I have worked with twins.

It is not a military operation, it is a civil operation and should begin adoptng the practices that civil operators have developed to promote safety.

There is a lot of target zero lip service but very little target zero action.

In addition a pilot should be able to land on any deck he wishes if he suspects there is a mechanical or safety issue with his aircraft.( without any repercussions) The culture now that is engrained is a fear of a wrong deck landing and loosing your job. .

After almost 28 years in this business i have never seen seen such stupidity.

2 friends gone! Action is required! the bullshit stops here!
pilonrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2015, 22:38   #27 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Finland
Posts: 67
Absolutely serious

Pilonrock ,
The fear of the wrong deck landing and its consequences is probably due to the rig’s strict insurance policy and condition requirements. The rig’s Hull insurances are not valid if each fire fighting stations are not manned, as well as fire fighting system has not been fully pressurized for immediate fire fighting response.
If a helicopter lands on the wrong deck then immediate fire fighting and immediate rescue service does not exist. In this case, the rig’s Hull insurance coverage does not exist at all. This is the reason why this is almost larger issue than life thing. This is Underwriter’s mandatory requirement (fully established immediate fire fighting and rescue response).
Copterline 103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2015, 22:38   #28 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 54
Posts: 974
I think you boys need to calm down. The Pilots job is to fly the helicopter not service or maintain it. With a large rotorcraft, quite apart from the risks of falling off it from a height out on the apron, there is more risk associated with a pilot leaving catches insecure than benefit to be gained from climbing all over it.

If you worry about looking under the cowling why not check torque each bolt to make sure the engineers have not made a mistake. Why not confirm every piece of wire locking? Why not check the correct oil has been used. The list is endless and far surpasses what the pilot can see during his tactile acceptance.

Bottom line, if you trust your engineers there should be very little to worry about.if you don't trust the.............reach the the torque wrench.

Pilonrock, there is a world of difference between a wrong deck landing and an emergency landing! Where are you dreaming this stuff up?
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2015, 23:07   #29 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 49
Posts: 35
Well double boogie

Well I'll tell ya perhaps if they could get the C check right specially bad rigging that came out of Lagos I would be less concerned . I asked to have cowls opened once . The amount of oil leaking from said component was definitely beyond limits and I have also seen lock wire out in backwards before ( wrong direction) . Trusting the engineer is one thing trusting the policy and the pushers at the top is another . There is no harm in leaving the cowls open for a little look around if even to be sure that tool control is working. When I asked why the seal wasn't replaced on said leaving component - no parts!!

As far as the human brain us concerned instilling a culture of fear can at desperate times lead to irrational decisions . Human factors muchachos!

Pilot/Engineer.
pilonrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 01:07   #30 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 49
Posts: 35
All true

All true chopper line ! But really if I'm running out of fuel or have a concern for the AC I wouldn't think twice about landing anywhere the concerns about insurance are secondary. I just don't think Bristows attitude on many levels supports safety. One guy falls and bumps his head and sustains injury and everyone is wearing helmets ! 6 people die and instead of fast rule changes that would prevent more loss of life it will be same old same old. There will be no changes if it effects the bottom line. Let's hope it's the complete opposite and the loss of Jay and Bello and the passengers on board effects change for the betterment of safety for all future operations. I hope and pray that the mgmt in Lagos gets their head out if their ass and effects change fast!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Copterline 103 View Post
Pilonrock ,
The fear of the wrong deck landing and its consequences is probably due to the rig’s strict insurance policy and condition requirements. The rig’s Hull insurances are not valid if each fire fighting stations are not manned, as well as fire fighting system has not been fully pressurized for immediate fire fighting response.
If a helicopter lands on the wrong deck then immediate fire fighting and immediate rescue service does not exist. In this case, the rig’s Hull insurance coverage does not exist at all. This is the reason why this is almost larger issue than life thing. This is Underwriter’s mandatory requirement (fully established immediate fire fighting and rescue response).
pilonrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 07:43   #31 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: malaysia
Age: 65
Posts: 9
You sound a bit arrogant. I used to climb every flight while I was there. Be reasonable in your comments please.
Dragoon52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 08:30   #32 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: N/A
Posts: 18
just climbing in?

Quote:
I think you boys need to calm down. The Pilots job is to fly the helicopter not service or maintain it. With a large rotorcraft, quite apart from the risks of falling off it from a height out on the apron, there is more risk associated with a pilot leaving catches insecure than benefit to be gained from climbing all over it.

If you worry about looking under the cowling why not check torque each bolt to make sure the engineers have not made a mistake. Why not confirm every piece of wire locking? Why not check the correct oil has been used. The list is endless and far surpasses what the pilot can see during his tactile acceptance.

Bottom line, if you trust your engineers there should be very little to worry about.if you don't trust the.............reach the the torque wrench.
Trust doesn't mean you can't double check. Engineers (and pilots) have bad days, difficult mornings and whatnot. Even on larger aircraft: why not just have a look? We're not talking about redoing the engineers' job, just making sure you're safe!
I work on a medium twin on aerial work ops and somehow the only pilots that have problems on the job are those who don't do a walk around of the AC. When they come back from the fire/sling job whatever they always blame the engineers and it always turn out that if they had had a look instead of just sitting their asses in the aircraft (not even checking oil levels, you don't need to climb anywhere for these), they'd have been alright.

It's only 5 to 15 minutes of your time, isn't it worth it? Double check the cowlings on the way down.

Hopefully lack of preflight won't be the issue here, I just read they've found the flight recorders so I guess it's just a matter of time before a report gets out.

My thoughts to those concerned, it's always a tragedy.
Jimny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 08:58   #33 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ban Don Ling
Posts: 234
Jimny, I am sure DB does a walk-around every flight .... he just doesn't climb up on top to re-open cowlings that have already been opened the previous day's post flight, and again in the morning and signed for by a qualified engineer. Sounds like he was in an Air Force - you know where the orficers job was just to wiggle the sticks, don't you know!

I was a grunt and so clambered on top for years; but after quite some time in established civilian offshore companies, and with age .... I see no point in placing myself as well at risk - and have every confidence in the safety systems procedures that now permit this - whilst I am at a base with maintenance personnel.
tistisnot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 09:16   #34 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: earth
Posts: 31
RIP Jay and Peter

May the souls of Jay, Peter and the 4 passengers rest in peace. This could not happened to a nicer couple of guys. They both were a huge asset for Bristow and, I'm sure, their families. Rest in peace.

It is nice to see a healthy discussion for a change without personal insults and attacks. The only fact I can say is that the only thing that is truly Bristow about Bristow Nigeria's operation is the colour scheme and company name on their helicopters. Everything else is pretty much different. They try to copy a few things here and there from what's done in the NS but even those are different. I have worked for Bristow in both places and I can tell you this is a fact. If you took away the common colour scheme and company name in all the helis (both in Nigeria and the NS) you definitely would not feel like you were flying for the same operator. Although Bristow's brochure says One Company One World, nothing is further from the truth. The way day to day operations are carried out in Nigeria is nothing like the way things are done in the NS.
Maybe they can use the "one world" bit in their brochure to join the Oneworld alliance. Maybe then I would be able to increase my FF miles and join the platinum card status!! 😃
tgvbhy15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 09:50   #35 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On land
Posts: 69
Quote:
The only fact I can say is that the only thing that is truly Bristow about Bristow Nigeria's operation is the colour scheme and company name on their helicopters. Everything else is pretty much different. They try to copy a few things here and there from what's done in the NS but even those are different. I have worked for Bristow in both places and I can tell you this is a fact. If you took away the common colour scheme and company name in all the helis (both in Nigeria and the NS) you definitely would not feel like you were flying for the same operator.
Bristow Nigeria summed up in one paragraph. Bravo
Nescafe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 14:49   #36 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England
Posts: 1,235
I have to say that I am a little baffled by some of the comments in respect of pre flight inspections. I can't work out how they relate to the accident in question.

Sticking to the S76, what good does looking solely under the engine cowling do? The most likely area for trouble to develop that would really spoil your day would be under the main transmission fairing, after all you have two engines. A loose article in this area could be catastrophic. I would happily lend any pilot who wanted to inspect this area a screwdriver with which to take out the umpteen screws that hold the fairing providing he is going to put them all back in again. The access panels provided give a very restricted view of the area.

The dangers of climbing onto the top of the 76 should not be dismissed. The walkway areas on either side of the aircraft are small and curved, even with non slip paint they can be lethal when wet.
In recent times at least one enginer has been killed in a fall from the top of a helicopter.
Do we want to expose crews to this possibilty?

Like most things in life there has to be a balance between safety and practicality.
The pilots have a preflight inspection schedule and should stick to it. If unhappy get it changed.

As one senior member of staff was heard to say on a very foggy day with the hangar full of aircraft, "that is what I like to see 100% safety"!!!!
ericferret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 15:37   #37 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 54
Posts: 974
Ericferret I agree with you completely. I think we have to trust each other to do our respective roles. I have never had a engineer flying with us who has asked to check my planning.

In offshore operations the less the pilots interfere under the cowlings the better. We do a walk round which is really to check all cowlings, doors and fuel caps are secure, blanks removed and no obvious bits missing.

Climbing on top of a puma on an Aberdeen winters day is akin to mountaineering and best left to the engineers.

I am more surprised at the anger directed towards the Operator when as yet, no cause has been intimated.
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 15:48   #38 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 54
Posts: 974
Tistisnot - Commissioned Army Officer so I was so not nearly as bad as a Crab! We had a man to do most of the tough stuff lest we break a finger nail or miss Tiffin in the mess!

Still I was the one digging a shell scrape and sleeping under my basha while you "Grunts" cuddled up in the SQMS Four-Tonner! AAC Grunts were not like real Grunts. I standby for the incoming!
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Aug 2015, 19:40   #39 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Finland
Posts: 67
Pilonrock,
Something has gone terribly wrong if one reason or another running out fuel threats. Running out of fuel activates “Fuel emergency” and fuel emergency radio call is needed.
There are reasons to think there is any there sense to fly IMC conditions using VMC planning and reserves?
If the case is a helicopter mechanical failure then should Mayday, Mayday message to be sent to the ATC and to inform the nearest Deck/HLO that helicopter X is going make emergency landing on your deck at xx minutes from now.
Wrong deck landing is most likely happen when crew is not following SOP’s to verify deck or vessel name before making committing call out. This is the most likely this root cause for Wrong deck landings what should be taken account company SMS and recurrent training (following SOP and usage of check lists).
You have to remember that there may be a defect that is not the company or technician known, but will lead to unpredictably situation where helicopter will come unflyable.

FAR 29 requires a Transportation Category helicopter as follows:

FAR 29.695 Power boost and power-operated control system.
(a) If a power boost or power-operated control system is used, an alternate system must be immediately available that allows continued safe flight and landing in the event of-
(1) Any single failure in the power portion of the system; or
(2) The failure of all engines.
(b) Each alternate system may be a duplicate power portion or a manually operated mechanical system. The power portion includes the power source (such as hydraulic pumps), and such items as valves, lines, and actuators.
(c) The failure of mechanical parts (such as piston rods and links), and the jamming of power cylinders must be considered unless they are extremely improbable

FAR 29.181 Dynamic stability: Category A rotorcraft.
Any short-period oscillation occurring at any speed from VY to VNE must be positively damped with the primary flight controls free and in a fixed position.

I know what I’m writing!
Copterline 103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Aug 2015, 03:05   #40 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: In the middle of freakin nowhere
Posts: 49
Quote:
senior management is that seem to be happy to let certain operations get run locally without too much influence from outside, something that has lead to these operations becoming insular rather than integral parts of the
Apologies for the slight thread drift and in no way intending to marginalize the tragic loss of life in this terrible event, the above quotation applies equally to CHC.......the utter disconnect between Dallas and say an AOC holder like the one they partner with in Thailand is just shameful. No protection for crews, be they engineering or pilots, local management wannabes running roughshod over the regulations.....the list goes on.

Hopefully those that perished in this accident were not victims of local management cutting corners.
tasspook is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:39.


© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1