Police aviation news, another 902 bashing!
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Hedski and Johni
Hedski
One problem with the 365 range is its size. The downwash created by an even heavier 365 would not be acceptable. At the time we were selecting a replacement we were getting an average of 2 insurance claims per month from property damage claimants and the management were concerned about the safety implications. The old helipad was located next to Whitechapel High Street and even though we were 8 floors up it wasn't difficult to trash the market stalls down at street level if the wind was in the wrong direction.
We needed the biggest cabin with the smallest footprint and the 902 was (still is!) the best contender although the latest (Prince Wiliiam's) 145 looks like it may be in the frame although the downwash may be an issue once again.
Johni
In my current post I see many pilots from a variety of backgrounds and I want to add my observations to yours.
There are many good 'self-selected', self-improved, commercially trained pilots and not all military trained pilots are as good as they may imagine. That said it is important to realise that military pilots receive MORE training than their commercial colleagues, much more. This hands them an in-built advantage and so it is easier for recruiters to select ex-mil over commercial.
The current (it's been like this for 40+years) commercial training system has, in my opinion, nothing like the rigour of a typical military system. It's an imperfect world out there and so any attempt to pigeon hole pilots is problematic. Even my generalised statements require qualification but that's for another thread.
G
One problem with the 365 range is its size. The downwash created by an even heavier 365 would not be acceptable. At the time we were selecting a replacement we were getting an average of 2 insurance claims per month from property damage claimants and the management were concerned about the safety implications. The old helipad was located next to Whitechapel High Street and even though we were 8 floors up it wasn't difficult to trash the market stalls down at street level if the wind was in the wrong direction.
We needed the biggest cabin with the smallest footprint and the 902 was (still is!) the best contender although the latest (Prince Wiliiam's) 145 looks like it may be in the frame although the downwash may be an issue once again.
Johni
In my current post I see many pilots from a variety of backgrounds and I want to add my observations to yours.
There are many good 'self-selected', self-improved, commercially trained pilots and not all military trained pilots are as good as they may imagine. That said it is important to realise that military pilots receive MORE training than their commercial colleagues, much more. This hands them an in-built advantage and so it is easier for recruiters to select ex-mil over commercial.
The current (it's been like this for 40+years) commercial training system has, in my opinion, nothing like the rigour of a typical military system. It's an imperfect world out there and so any attempt to pigeon hole pilots is problematic. Even my generalised statements require qualification but that's for another thread.
G
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Geoffrers I think you explained the MIL vs CIVVY argument very. I
I would add that all military pilots are subject to aircrew selection procedures, and in UK, during training, are effectively 5 hours from the chop throughout their training (review).
The selection and the ease at which a military pilot can get chop means the end product, those that survive, have proven ability and skills.
In civilian life the only obstacle to qualifications is either you are a total spastic or run out of money. The two systems are poles apart.
I hate civvies, I could not believe it when I found out my parents were civvies!
I would add that all military pilots are subject to aircrew selection procedures, and in UK, during training, are effectively 5 hours from the chop throughout their training (review).
The selection and the ease at which a military pilot can get chop means the end product, those that survive, have proven ability and skills.
In civilian life the only obstacle to qualifications is either you are a total spastic or run out of money. The two systems are poles apart.
I hate civvies, I could not believe it when I found out my parents were civvies!
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DB
You should be aware that whereas money (or lies) will find a way through almost any licensing system it is also true to say that there are parts of the world where access to military aviation is down to family connections and/or who you know.
It doesn't matter how much training some people have it will not alter their personality.
G.
It doesn't matter how much training some people have it will not alter their personality.
G.
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Johni
Sounds like you have a personal tale to tell. What I said goes for all and I daresay you can find those that would want to include me in that.
If the QA process was a little less dysfunctional then those who can't teach would be given a little help - up the ladder or out the door
Nowhere man - I certainly wouldn't want to fight you over that assertion but that's enough self-incrimination for one day. Suffice it to say that whilst many a father's son got to the upper echelons in my day it was rarely a case that it wasn't earned. A little more meritocracy may have crept into the UK system since the days when we had more ships and aircraft than we have personnel today.
G.
Sounds like you have a personal tale to tell. What I said goes for all and I daresay you can find those that would want to include me in that.
If the QA process was a little less dysfunctional then those who can't teach would be given a little help - up the ladder or out the door
Nowhere man - I certainly wouldn't want to fight you over that assertion but that's enough self-incrimination for one day. Suffice it to say that whilst many a father's son got to the upper echelons in my day it was rarely a case that it wasn't earned. A little more meritocracy may have crept into the UK system since the days when we had more ships and aircraft than we have personnel today.
G.
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I have seen both sides of the argument johni.
I'm a self improver, not ex mil. But I've seen too many prima donnas on the civ "don't you know I'm an instructor" side, far too many.
And some fly elsewhere now, including heavies but usually success comes after being brought back down to earth first.
I'm a self improver, not ex mil. But I've seen too many prima donnas on the civ "don't you know I'm an instructor" side, far too many.
And some fly elsewhere now, including heavies but usually success comes after being brought back down to earth first.
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Instructing is easy if you follow the Captain Flasheart mantra:
"Treat yer kite like yer woman, get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back...Woof!"
Job done!
"Treat yer kite like yer woman, get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back...Woof!"
Job done!
Seems the discussion on the 902 has turned into a different thread.
Is the 902 point closed out, or is there further insight to be gained?
Is the 902 point closed out, or is there further insight to be gained?
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Ok, back on thread.
2 MD902's, one daily use with a spare to cover the large number of days unavailability of airframe 1, or get a 135/145 which seem to be much less labour intensive maintenance wise and cheaper to run with better performance at MAUW thereby negating the 2nd airframe requirement. How does that sound?
902 seems to be down a lot of days for maintenance and at MAUW as London seem to operate does appear to be power limited.
2 MD902's, one daily use with a spare to cover the large number of days unavailability of airframe 1, or get a 135/145 which seem to be much less labour intensive maintenance wise and cheaper to run with better performance at MAUW thereby negating the 2nd airframe requirement. How does that sound?
902 seems to be down a lot of days for maintenance and at MAUW as London seem to operate does appear to be power limited.
@Hedski et al: sorry to be a grumpus, but we've had a number of "civ versus mil" threads where various axes are ground, which I felt was taking away from points like yours on the 902 and getting the mission done. 
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Its belies belief that the intelligent members continue to read the utter tripe reported in PAN. This latest article reported in this online rag is the next best thing to libeling. It is full of incorrect data, received from a washed up inside source, that he hopes will fool the reader.
I would hope that the trustees at LAA will not let it go this time.
While MDHI has it issues, PANs constant picking away at these issues is completely politically motived.
Prepare for a force retraction this time.
I would hope that the trustees at LAA will not let it go this time.
While MDHI has it issues, PANs constant picking away at these issues is completely politically motived.
Prepare for a force retraction this time.
Heli Austria operates a fleet of 5 902's for HEMS just fine.
Sure, now and again one needs a bit of work done, but which machine doesn't!
I have seen in the past, that generally the machines that are always needing repairs.........are the ones with a bad maintenance team behind them. (I am not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea about the UK ops)
The 902 is a great HEMS machine... Small, agile, NOTAR, pilot friendly design, and space for the Dr's in the back...
Sure, now and again one needs a bit of work done, but which machine doesn't!
I have seen in the past, that generally the machines that are always needing repairs.........are the ones with a bad maintenance team behind them. (I am not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea about the UK ops)
The 902 is a great HEMS machine... Small, agile, NOTAR, pilot friendly design, and space for the Dr's in the back...
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Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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Nobody likes to see lies or smoking mirrors, I'm sure an apology will happen if the facts are incorrect.
Out of interest, which bit is wrong? The downtime stats or the reasons why? Or both?
Out of interest, which bit is wrong? The downtime stats or the reasons why? Or both?
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I've flown 902's for the past 10 years in both HEMS and Police units and it's great. Hardly ever had any problems and regularly see 98/99% monthly avalibility. I've never noticed a shortage of spares leading to any prolonged AOG.
Very embarrassing reading PAN, no idea of the authors background but obviously he has had a run in with MD in the past.
Very embarrassing reading PAN, no idea of the authors background but obviously he has had a run in with MD in the past.
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Before pitchforks are sharpened and torches lit, the original article was actually sourced from the London Evening Standard. He failed to mention it in his previous posts, but HeliHub did a good write-up on the actual situation, including feedback from the LAA itself.
Personally I enjoy reading PAN, esp. the occasional humorous article. Their write up of the Heli-Expo OEM presentations is also usually more honest and accurate than that of other publications averse to putting ad revenues at risk.
I/C
Personally I enjoy reading PAN, esp. the occasional humorous article. Their write up of the Heli-Expo OEM presentations is also usually more honest and accurate than that of other publications averse to putting ad revenues at risk.
I/C
The BK117 would be a step backwards performance-wise and tail rotor-wise. Working Cat A from a city rooftop needs the best you can get. Maybe the 145 is 'it' but I can't say without taking a close look at the Flight Manual.
G.
G.
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including feedback from the LAA itself
I've flown 902's for the past 10 years in both HEMS and Police units and it's great. Hardly ever had any problems and regularly see 98/99% monthly avalibility. I've never noticed a shortage of spares leading to any prolonged AOG.