Serbian military helicopter crashed on medical flight- 7 dead
Thread Starter
Serbian military helicopter crashed on medical flight- 7 dead
Yesterday evening, Friday, 13th around 22:30 local time, ATC Belgrade lost contact with an approaching MI-17, operated by Serbian armed forces. Wreckage was found approx. 1NM from Belgrade international airport main runway in an open field. Four military crewmembers, a doctor, a medic and 5 days old baby, that was aboard for emergency medical transport, died on the scene. There was no post-crash fire. Low visibility reported at time of accident.
Seven children lost their fathers, tomorrow a day of mourning declared by Government of Serbia.
This is terrible!!!
My condolences to all involved.
hoistop
Seven children lost their fathers, tomorrow a day of mourning declared by Government of Serbia.
This is terrible!!!
My condolences to all involved.
hoistop
Last edited by hoistop; 15th Mar 2015 at 10:51.
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RIP. Tragic.
But worth noting that 4K hours isn't a lot judged by other standards.
According to military officials, the pilot was among the most experienced in the Serbian army, with more than 4,000 hours of flight.
Thread Starter
Just to add to human dimension of this terrible event: baby was born on Monday to teenager mother (16 years old) Two days later, she left the hospital against the advice of doctors and cared for the baby alone - (28 yrs old father is in jail, convicted of child abduction). On Friday, she came back to emergency room in her home town with baby losing consciuness. Baby was sent to nearest suitable hospital by ground ambulance, but baby`s condition deteriorated on the way. Then ambulance got stuck in traffic jam, caused by mudslide (lots of rain in the last days, local flood warnings issued). As also oxygen supply became an issue, a military helicopter was scrambled and made a rendez-vous at nearby military barracks in Raška, where fateful flight commenced. Crashed MI-17 was only one of two of the type in armed forces. Others are old MI-8.
Definitelly a lot of pressure on the crew. Weather forecast for LYBE was clearly pointing to low visibility - fog. Capt. Mehić has some 4000 hours and considered the best in the Army, also transporting members of government. I am not sure about actual IFR equipment on board. There is no regular HEMS service in the country. 9A are you reading?? Speak up!
Definitelly a lot of pressure on the crew. Weather forecast for LYBE was clearly pointing to low visibility - fog. Capt. Mehić has some 4000 hours and considered the best in the Army, also transporting members of government. I am not sure about actual IFR equipment on board. There is no regular HEMS service in the country. 9A are you reading?? Speak up!
Last edited by hoistop; 15th Mar 2015 at 23:07.
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No regular HEMS.
I think it's not about the crew and hours (but maybe about the equipment for the job). IMHO.
These guys did that many times before.
PS METAR report was something about OVC 200' / RVR 1000-1500 m
JR
I think it's not about the crew and hours (but maybe about the equipment for the job). IMHO.
These guys did that many times before.
PS METAR report was something about OVC 200' / RVR 1000-1500 m
JR
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Lybe 132200z 25008kt 0800 r12/1500d r30/1500d fg ovc002 04/04 q1020 nosig= lybe 132130z 25007kt 1500 br ovc002 04/04 q1020 nosig= lybe 132100z 25007kt 3000 br ovc003 04/04 q1020 nosig= lybe 132030z 25006kt 4000 br ovc003 04/04 q1020 nosig=
Thread Starter
"Black box" has been found and retrieved. Not sure what info is recorded, as it is Russian military style.
News reports that two investigation boards were established and were given deadline to report their conclusions by the end of March (!!!)
Commanding officer of airborne brigade, to which the unfortnate crew belonged stated, that crew and helicopter were trained and equipped for the given conditions, that weather was "difficult but not critical". The crew performed many similar and more demanding (SAR) missions in the past. It seems that initial plan was to do approach to a location nearby hospital, but then changed to LYBE, as "weather deteriorated" (questionable considering LYBE weather reports provided in post above) Military was requested to perform the mission around 19:30 local (UTC+1)
One "media aviation specialist" stated that there was external pressure to crew to complete the mission.
News reports that two investigation boards were established and were given deadline to report their conclusions by the end of March (!!!)
Commanding officer of airborne brigade, to which the unfortnate crew belonged stated, that crew and helicopter were trained and equipped for the given conditions, that weather was "difficult but not critical". The crew performed many similar and more demanding (SAR) missions in the past. It seems that initial plan was to do approach to a location nearby hospital, but then changed to LYBE, as "weather deteriorated" (questionable considering LYBE weather reports provided in post above) Military was requested to perform the mission around 19:30 local (UTC+1)
One "media aviation specialist" stated that there was external pressure to crew to complete the mission.
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Very sad to read all this.
I was just talking to one soaring pilot about 'events' and one of Murphy's laws being *random events/accidents happen in groups* and that it's not the typical aviation human factors strictly.
What an unfortunate chain of events/acts/decisions before the helicopter was even dispatched.
I was just talking to one soaring pilot about 'events' and one of Murphy's laws being *random events/accidents happen in groups* and that it's not the typical aviation human factors strictly.
What an unfortunate chain of events/acts/decisions before the helicopter was even dispatched.
Regards to all...
From the beginning it was clear that this was a characteristic type of incident, from the wider area of countries that sourced ex Yugoslav type of emergency handling procedures - my Croatia included.
CFIT or out of fuel, after three unsuccessful approaches to main BEG airport Surcin , where politicians and media already "celebrated another glory success of brave airmanship". Such kind of reports are even published within main media.
On the end of the day this was typical worst case scenario, where using of military transport helicopters for medical purposes, in the nature of what is considered to be of commercial air transport, finished like tragedy.
Most of you know that the standard Mi17 type are equipped for night VFR. Allegedly by writing on expert blogs this Mi17 and another one which were taken over from the Ministry of Interior, had some VOR and ILS equipment. Regular crew training and verification of use of that IFR NAV AIDs are not performed or verified. Especially not for the meteorological conditions that were at stake.
RIP for crew and passengers and my condolences to all related.
PS
This case occurred in Serbia, where politicians are accountable to the public and voters during elections.
In Croatia, with all that, we have the law on air transport, which provides that all state owned aircrafts must be operated in accordance to that law.
For years, this is not the case, and the complete military system of secondary medical transport and fire protection from the air exist in the gray zone - outside of the law.
In addition, as a full member of the EU and NATO integrations, Croatia has taken some standards which in this cases, does not comply.
EU&EC do not care about EU Ops within one member state and NATO so far not complaining while military funds are spent on
commercial air transport (secondary medical transport) and aerial works (firefighting).
From the beginning it was clear that this was a characteristic type of incident, from the wider area of countries that sourced ex Yugoslav type of emergency handling procedures - my Croatia included.
CFIT or out of fuel, after three unsuccessful approaches to main BEG airport Surcin , where politicians and media already "celebrated another glory success of brave airmanship". Such kind of reports are even published within main media.
On the end of the day this was typical worst case scenario, where using of military transport helicopters for medical purposes, in the nature of what is considered to be of commercial air transport, finished like tragedy.
Most of you know that the standard Mi17 type are equipped for night VFR. Allegedly by writing on expert blogs this Mi17 and another one which were taken over from the Ministry of Interior, had some VOR and ILS equipment. Regular crew training and verification of use of that IFR NAV AIDs are not performed or verified. Especially not for the meteorological conditions that were at stake.
RIP for crew and passengers and my condolences to all related.
PS
This case occurred in Serbia, where politicians are accountable to the public and voters during elections.
In Croatia, with all that, we have the law on air transport, which provides that all state owned aircrafts must be operated in accordance to that law.
For years, this is not the case, and the complete military system of secondary medical transport and fire protection from the air exist in the gray zone - outside of the law.
In addition, as a full member of the EU and NATO integrations, Croatia has taken some standards which in this cases, does not comply.
EU&EC do not care about EU Ops within one member state and NATO so far not complaining while military funds are spent on
commercial air transport (secondary medical transport) and aerial works (firefighting).
Last edited by 9Aplus; 16th Mar 2015 at 10:20.
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Maybe you could comment VIP Mi-17 crash in Vukovar (as far I remember), with probable cause of too much acoustic insulation material around transmission levers, in order to save politicians' ears. For a difference of Serbia where nothing is done by the law.
Been there, done that, on national and international levels, if you like you can (re)open here that Vukovar case like separate topic... and we can continue there.
Back ON TOPIC
First preliminary report from 18. Mar 2015. is published yet?
Back ON TOPIC
First preliminary report from 18. Mar 2015. is published yet?
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Which particular law you had in mind ,which exists in Croatia and not in Serbia? Once when you mention things like that, you should be very ready to explain.
I tried to find the topic about HR helicopter crash, but I can't find it on PPruNe.
And, please, don't use caps lock.
I tried to find the topic about HR helicopter crash, but I can't find it on PPruNe.
And, please, don't use caps lock.
Obviously you have problem of reading with understanding.
So here, again:
My ref was on the law in Croatia, article 13. Law about air traffic
You are more than welcome to open Vukovar crash case topic here on PPRUNE.org
Perhaps your authorities can learn from that topic, how not to do the same or similar system mistakes, during investigation and learn something.
You skipped the answer about preliminary report?
So here, again:
In Croatia, with all that, we have the law on air transport, which provides that all state owned aircrafts must be operated in accordance to that law. For years, this is not the case, and the complete military system of secondary medical transport and fire protection from the air exist in the gray zone - outside of the law.
ZRAČNI PROMET Glava 1.
Opće odredbe
Zrakoplovi i pravila letenja
Članak 13.
(1) U zračnom prometu zrakoplovi se upotrebljavaju u skladu s tipom, kategorijom i namjenom.
(2) Uvjeti i način, pravila i postupci letenja zrakoplova, uključujući i operativne usluge u zračnom prometu, utvrđuju se propisom donesenim na temelju ovog Zakona i u skladu s odgovarajućim EU propisima.
(3) Odredbe propisa iz stavka 2. ovog članka odgovarajuće se primjenjuju i na državne zrakoplove.
Eng automated Translation:
AIR TRANSPORT
Head first
General provisions
Aircraft and flight rules
Article 13th
(1) In air transport aircraft used in accordance with the type, category and purpose.
(2) The conditions and methods, rules and procedures of flying the aircraft, including the operational air traffic services shall be determined by regulations adopted pursuant to this Act and in accordance with the relevant EU regulations.
(3) The provisions of the regulations referred to in paragraph 2 of this Article shall apply to state owned aircrafts.
Opće odredbe
Zrakoplovi i pravila letenja
Članak 13.
(1) U zračnom prometu zrakoplovi se upotrebljavaju u skladu s tipom, kategorijom i namjenom.
(2) Uvjeti i način, pravila i postupci letenja zrakoplova, uključujući i operativne usluge u zračnom prometu, utvrđuju se propisom donesenim na temelju ovog Zakona i u skladu s odgovarajućim EU propisima.
(3) Odredbe propisa iz stavka 2. ovog članka odgovarajuće se primjenjuju i na državne zrakoplove.
Eng automated Translation:
AIR TRANSPORT
Head first
General provisions
Aircraft and flight rules
Article 13th
(1) In air transport aircraft used in accordance with the type, category and purpose.
(2) The conditions and methods, rules and procedures of flying the aircraft, including the operational air traffic services shall be determined by regulations adopted pursuant to this Act and in accordance with the relevant EU regulations.
(3) The provisions of the regulations referred to in paragraph 2 of this Article shall apply to state owned aircrafts.
Perhaps your authorities can learn from that topic, how not to do the same or similar system mistakes, during investigation and learn something.
You skipped the answer about preliminary report?
Last edited by 9Aplus; 22nd Mar 2015 at 16:52.
You would like to think that a crew who were asked to fly an ILS to absolute minima at night would have been properly equipped, trained and practiced but, unless something mechanical caused them additional problems, it looks like a sad case of task-fixation leading to CFIT.
Condolences.
Condolences.
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OK,9Aplus let's stop with this, as this is not the occasion. I was reading between the lines and I commented that. Laws are, more or less same in all European countries, and I strongly believe that national air authorities of our respective countries are capable to cope with disasters like this one.
Preliminary report, with purpose to establish responsibility regarding compliance to operational procedures during decision making process, is delivered to state prosecutor, with no details published. Details will be published in accordance to his decision and permission. The report which intends to find cause of crash will be issued till the end of March.
Preliminary report, with purpose to establish responsibility regarding compliance to operational procedures during decision making process, is delivered to state prosecutor, with no details published. Details will be published in accordance to his decision and permission. The report which intends to find cause of crash will be issued till the end of March.
OK, fine with me.
I was invited to comment this incident, like active member here, also with some background of active membership within EASA EHEST.
As usual I am trying to put non biased opinion, on all cases.
Therefore it is not necessary to "read between" the lines.
My lines are loud an clear in favor of future safety.... and incident rate reduction.
I was invited to comment this incident, like active member here, also with some background of active membership within EASA EHEST.
As usual I am trying to put non biased opinion, on all cases.
Therefore it is not necessary to "read between" the lines.
My lines are loud an clear in favor of future safety.... and incident rate reduction.
Thread Starter
roll,roll,roll
Do you know what kind of IFR equipment was installed in ill-fated Mi 17?
VOR/ILS, DME, radio altimeter? In what form (basic or proper HSI)? Autopilot? Flight director? What modes available? Coupled ILS approach available or they shoot ILS manually?
Then comes the question of IFR rating of the crew? How much IFR flying/aproaches in last 90days?
Is any above mentioned info known / available?
What has preliminary report said?
hoistop
Do you know what kind of IFR equipment was installed in ill-fated Mi 17?
VOR/ILS, DME, radio altimeter? In what form (basic or proper HSI)? Autopilot? Flight director? What modes available? Coupled ILS approach available or they shoot ILS manually?
Then comes the question of IFR rating of the crew? How much IFR flying/aproaches in last 90days?
Is any above mentioned info known / available?
What has preliminary report said?
hoistop
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The report was partially presented to the public today. Not good. Generally, they went into unusual attitude in final approach, after trying to see the runway. There are still many things to be clarified and as I am very close to the subject, I wouldn't comment. For the Mi17 equipment, I will see and will bring here precisely. 