UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 5
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Aeroplanes have uses of course, but here we go again, learning why you might have an asset that can fly for 5 hours and can't do the job when asked. A typical city centre job, 1200ft cloudbase and an offender yard hopping in terraced streets. Just send the 5 hour asset home coz it's useless
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JT..
90% of the time it is an incident such as this from Humberside yesterday.
THE POLICE helicopter was deployed to Brigg following reports of a possible disturbance.
The incident happened at about 11.50am yesterday (Saturday, February 21).
On arrival "all appeared to be in order".
The incident was reported on the Humberside Police helicopter's Twitter feed.
Read more: Police helicopter called to reports of disturbance in Brigg - but nothing found | Scunthorpe Telegraph
Follow us: @ScunTelegraph on Twitter | thisisscunny on Facebook
The above happens day in day out. I understand a handful of pilots want to carry on wasting public money but the new system makes more sense.
Sky Sports...
To answer your question a fixed wing aircraft is best deployed outside a local area.
I take it your are referring to the old Hampshire police unit using an Optica which sadly crashed?
Looking at the new bases as per
http://www.npas.police.uk/news/natio...-15-base-model
They all allow operation of fixed and helicopter operations.
Good move
90% of the time it is an incident such as this from Humberside yesterday.
THE POLICE helicopter was deployed to Brigg following reports of a possible disturbance.
The incident happened at about 11.50am yesterday (Saturday, February 21).
On arrival "all appeared to be in order".
The incident was reported on the Humberside Police helicopter's Twitter feed.
Read more: Police helicopter called to reports of disturbance in Brigg - but nothing found | Scunthorpe Telegraph
Follow us: @ScunTelegraph on Twitter | thisisscunny on Facebook
The above happens day in day out. I understand a handful of pilots want to carry on wasting public money but the new system makes more sense.
Sky Sports...
To answer your question a fixed wing aircraft is best deployed outside a local area.
I take it your are referring to the old Hampshire police unit using an Optica which sadly crashed?
Looking at the new bases as per
http://www.npas.police.uk/news/natio...-15-base-model
They all allow operation of fixed and helicopter operations.
Good move
Last edited by Romeopapa; 22nd Feb 2015 at 12:05.
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RP You are, perhaps, highlighting why those who think they understand how the job is done should not be allowed to decide.
I am sure that you are a highly intelligent professional with an understanding of many areas of aviation but you don't seem to have grasped what the job entails.
You make a lot of valid points, I agree that police helicopters attend many jobs that they should never be sent to - often, I believe, just to justify their existence to those who don't understand what they're best at. I also believe that there are many jobs which can be done far more efficiently by fixed wing assets but the jobs that really need a locally based helicopter, really need a locally based helicopter or one that can get to the scene reasonably quickly and has access to fuel in that area.
Unfortunately, the new model will mean that helicopters waste their time locally on the same garden hopping bike thief while a fixed wing asset attends the rural areas and has to stand down due to the nature of the task, weather or environment.
In a few years we'll go down to a nine base model and carry on attending stuff that doesn't warrant the use of such an asset merely because someone with no understanding of what it is really for has decided that they want one.
I agree with you that helicopters are used wrongly but the new model won't change that, it will just add fixed wing assets that are used wrongly, too.
I am sure that you are a highly intelligent professional with an understanding of many areas of aviation but you don't seem to have grasped what the job entails.
You make a lot of valid points, I agree that police helicopters attend many jobs that they should never be sent to - often, I believe, just to justify their existence to those who don't understand what they're best at. I also believe that there are many jobs which can be done far more efficiently by fixed wing assets but the jobs that really need a locally based helicopter, really need a locally based helicopter or one that can get to the scene reasonably quickly and has access to fuel in that area.
Unfortunately, the new model will mean that helicopters waste their time locally on the same garden hopping bike thief while a fixed wing asset attends the rural areas and has to stand down due to the nature of the task, weather or environment.
In a few years we'll go down to a nine base model and carry on attending stuff that doesn't warrant the use of such an asset merely because someone with no understanding of what it is really for has decided that they want one.
I agree with you that helicopters are used wrongly but the new model won't change that, it will just add fixed wing assets that are used wrongly, too.
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Thanks Max...
Pretty much sums up my feelings.
You can't have the machine shop running the engineering company.
If some of the so called long term experts on here really knew what made sense they would be MD's of their own companies not drivers.
Pretty much sums up my feelings.
You can't have the machine shop running the engineering company.
If some of the so called long term experts on here really knew what made sense they would be MD's of their own companies not drivers.
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Fixed Wing
Allegedly the daily mail think the Met have been using fixed wings since 1997, if fixed wing was the way forward then i cant see why the Met would invest in 3 145's......(unless of course the fixed wings couldnt completely fulfil the task)
Met Police spends millions of pounds on secret aircraft - Telegraph
Met Police spends millions of pounds on secret aircraft - Telegraph
Last edited by Colonal Mustard; 22nd Feb 2015 at 15:44.
Interesting comment from Ian Whitehouse in the Derby Telegraph article:
I know that Harwarden is going 24hr, but does that mean that all Bases will be 24hr?
jayteeto is an ex officer pilot. 
Mind you, he was an NCO before he got his commission.
“This move will help improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the service and mean that every base supports police forces 24 hours a day.
RP
Do you mean Ex NCO pilots?
Do you mean Ex NCO pilots?
In a word
yes
yes
Mind you, he was an NCO before he got his commission.
One son ex Dartmouth and the other ex Cranwell.
NCO pilots could do with an extra chip detector for the one on the shoulder.
NCO pilots could do with an extra chip detector for the one on the shoulder.
You must be great fun to work with. BTW - it is SNCO pilots.
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So called experts.......... if we were that good, we would be MDs.......
First, I left the job a few years ago because I saw this fiasco coming. Second, it really is a fiasco. Third, I have been requested to do a management job, I would rather stick needles in my eyes, got the tee shirt years ago. Fourth, police aviation DID need a review, they just did it badly. Fifth, 90% of the jobs are not like that as you say. Sixth, from your comments I am guessing you are not in the job. Seventh, if you are, well, concentrate hard....... are you reading my mind???
Eighth, I do consider myself quite knowledgeable about police aviation in a modern UK city.
I totally agree that vicious cuts must be made in public spending, the country is skint. However, I firmly believe that if you want to do a job, do it properly or not at all. As we stand, why waste millions on a second rate service? Just can it completely until you can afford a proper service.
I do not "blame" the management for cuts, they are puppets, however I do not accept someone going on camera and saying forces are getting a better service. That is nothing but a lie.
First, I left the job a few years ago because I saw this fiasco coming. Second, it really is a fiasco. Third, I have been requested to do a management job, I would rather stick needles in my eyes, got the tee shirt years ago. Fourth, police aviation DID need a review, they just did it badly. Fifth, 90% of the jobs are not like that as you say. Sixth, from your comments I am guessing you are not in the job. Seventh, if you are, well, concentrate hard....... are you reading my mind???
Eighth, I do consider myself quite knowledgeable about police aviation in a modern UK city.
I totally agree that vicious cuts must be made in public spending, the country is skint. However, I firmly believe that if you want to do a job, do it properly or not at all. As we stand, why waste millions on a second rate service? Just can it completely until you can afford a proper service.
I do not "blame" the management for cuts, they are puppets, however I do not accept someone going on camera and saying forces are getting a better service. That is nothing but a lie.
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New guy here . How on gods green earth has this not been in the news . We all know NHS is the hot potato of the day. We all are subject to brain bashing the country is skint !!
Mr proffesional crim is sadly not daft and this open forum(apart from GCHQ tracking bless erm ) is a gift from God to them.
HEMS driver for a living , so the more knowledgeable people can take my comments apart . I speak to bobbies all the time on a job , and in my view NPAS how now killed all confidence in Police aviation . Somebody has to do the money sums somewhere though and every dept is saying not me . NHS/police/military/Basket weaving society/
The most often question I get asked as do all HEMS crews is why is this not government funded . I think NPAS is my new answer .
Mr proffesional crim is sadly not daft and this open forum(apart from GCHQ tracking bless erm ) is a gift from God to them.
HEMS driver for a living , so the more knowledgeable people can take my comments apart . I speak to bobbies all the time on a job , and in my view NPAS how now killed all confidence in Police aviation . Somebody has to do the money sums somewhere though and every dept is saying not me . NHS/police/military/Basket weaving society/
The most often question I get asked as do all HEMS crews is why is this not government funded . I think NPAS is my new answer .
NPAS) has said it is to close 10 of its helicopter bases over the next two years.
Ch Supt Ian Whitehouse, from the NPAS said the closures were part of a plan to meet a 14% reduction in its budget over the next three years.
The service will operate from 15 bases following the cuts.
Four helicopters will be cut from the existing number of 23 and four fixed-wing aircraft introduced.
The bases facing closure in 2016 are; Rhuddlan, Halfpenny Green, Pembrey, Ripley and Sheffield.
Durham Tees Valley, Warton, Wattisham, Husbands Bosworth and Lippitts Hill will close by 2017.
New bases are planned to open at Elstree and East Midlands Airport, where the four new fixed-wing aircraft will be based.
'Efficiency and effectiveness'
The NPAS was launched in October 2012 to co-ordinate the deployment of police helicopters, which were then operated by individual forces from 30 bases.
It serves forces across England and Wales, including British Transport Police.
The Metropolitan Police, Dyfed-Powys Police and Humberside Police are all due to join the NPAS by the end of next year.
According to a NPAS spokesman, Humberside Police's existing base is expected to close in September 2016. when the force joins the national service.
Ch Supt Whitehouse said it was a difficult decision to close the bases.
"This move will help improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the service and mean that every base supports police forces 24 hours a day," he said.
"It is a move based on an analysis of potential threat, risk and harm to the public we serve."
Ch Supt Ian Whitehouse, from the NPAS said the closures were part of a plan to meet a 14% reduction in its budget over the next three years.
The service will operate from 15 bases following the cuts.
Four helicopters will be cut from the existing number of 23 and four fixed-wing aircraft introduced.
The bases facing closure in 2016 are; Rhuddlan, Halfpenny Green, Pembrey, Ripley and Sheffield.
Durham Tees Valley, Warton, Wattisham, Husbands Bosworth and Lippitts Hill will close by 2017.
New bases are planned to open at Elstree and East Midlands Airport, where the four new fixed-wing aircraft will be based.
'Efficiency and effectiveness'
The NPAS was launched in October 2012 to co-ordinate the deployment of police helicopters, which were then operated by individual forces from 30 bases.
It serves forces across England and Wales, including British Transport Police.
The Metropolitan Police, Dyfed-Powys Police and Humberside Police are all due to join the NPAS by the end of next year.
According to a NPAS spokesman, Humberside Police's existing base is expected to close in September 2016. when the force joins the national service.
Ch Supt Whitehouse said it was a difficult decision to close the bases.
"This move will help improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the service and mean that every base supports police forces 24 hours a day," he said.
"It is a move based on an analysis of potential threat, risk and harm to the public we serve."
P1
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Max, even I agree with your views on deployment!
Hemspilot, if the hems/A A units could ever agree on anything, it certainly wouldn't be a joined up organisation.......too many vested interests and fingers in pots. If it was funded by the tax payer the pcts would cut them to save money, and lastly, having spent years co located with A A, I formed the opinion that most AA flights were like most police flights.......A waste of time and money.......because the crew did as they were told by dispatch despite knowing better.
Is this true that all 4 planks will be based at one airport?
Hemspilot, if the hems/A A units could ever agree on anything, it certainly wouldn't be a joined up organisation.......too many vested interests and fingers in pots. If it was funded by the tax payer the pcts would cut them to save money, and lastly, having spent years co located with A A, I formed the opinion that most AA flights were like most police flights.......A waste of time and money.......because the crew did as they were told by dispatch despite knowing better.
Is this true that all 4 planks will be based at one airport?
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RP,
I do hope those fine sons of yours haven't adopted the attitude you have to nco pilot's. The British forces are built on teamwork, trust, and respect, no room for snobs these days. Those that have tried attitudes such as yours within police aviation have found themselves in front of the police sergeant without coffee.
I do hope those fine sons of yours haven't adopted the attitude you have to nco pilot's. The British forces are built on teamwork, trust, and respect, no room for snobs these days. Those that have tried attitudes such as yours within police aviation have found themselves in front of the police sergeant without coffee.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
RP;
Lol, there's only one person here with a chip on their shoulder RP 
Perhaps your Cranwell son in particular could give you a lesson on NCO pilots
I'm not anti military by the way. One son ex Dartmouth and the other ex Cranwell.
NCO pilots could do with an extra chip detector for the one on the shoulder
NCO pilots could do with an extra chip detector for the one on the shoulder
Perhaps your Cranwell son in particular could give you a lesson on NCO pilots
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Art of flight, whilst I second your sentiment, my concern is that if RP isn't ex mil, then where has this coloured attitude come from. Could it be from the fruit of his loins?
If not then maybe he has had direct experience of a particularly negative SNCO. either way, the reading between the lines bit is a pretty big jump, it rather colours his otherwise fair comments.
Sadly, I have to deal with a lot of underwhelming civilians, I do not pigeon hole or judge them as all a bunch of tards.
RTL
If not then maybe he has had direct experience of a particularly negative SNCO. either way, the reading between the lines bit is a pretty big jump, it rather colours his otherwise fair comments.
Sadly, I have to deal with a lot of underwhelming civilians, I do not pigeon hole or judge them as all a bunch of tards.
RTL
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Thread Starter
I wonder if RP will tell us if his sons are pilots or not!
I am stunned that this has happened. Even after all the rhetoric, I did not believe that HMG would go through with such a swingeing cut as this. They really do mean business don't they and NO-ONE is going to be immune from such draconian cutbacks. Perhaps there is truth to the rumour that HMG are being a little over enthusiastic with austerity?
For the benefit of "backtothebeat", your comment that NPAS really don't know what they are doing is disingenous to say the least. Perhaps that's why you are a bobby and they are senior management. I know each of the original NPAS SLT very well indeed. Believe me when I tell you their M.O when it comes to strategy, knowledge and delivery, is second to none. They have some of the very best aviators and police officers at NPAS. The problem is more complicated. Since NPAS was set up, their ranks have burgeoned. This is often the case with a new 'empire'. Solicitors, accountants, planners, marketing, procurement and of course - lately - our beloved PCC's have all come to the table and want a slice of the action. It seems they are 'necessary evils' as part of the growing process of setting up the UK's biggest onshore helicopter operation. Politics shows its hand with various constabularies not wanting to join through sheer stubborness, even though it's a Home Office mandate - the best example for this being the MET who stalled and stalled for months until the two CC's met head to head and realised what was happening behind their backs. Finally - just as clear air was forming - HMG delivered the second (and hopefully) final tranche of austerity with this massive reduction in budget and at the most inopportune moment. The head of NPAS has also been given a very short timeline within which he has to act.
The 'baby' never got out of its cot!
Hawarden (Chester) now covers: Liverpool city centre, Cheshire, Cumbria and the WHOLE of North Wales with one cab.
This isn't a service it's a token gesture which will not stand the test of time.
15 a/c to cover the whole of the UK is a joke. One day a minister in DfT will wake up and make a name for him/herself and decide it is not cost effective to continue like this and do away with aerial police support (except for several FW dotted strategically around the UK for terorism issues).
NPAS days are numbered. What a terrible shame after so much effort by so many people over so many years.
Governmental vandalism.
For the benefit of "backtothebeat", your comment that NPAS really don't know what they are doing is disingenous to say the least. Perhaps that's why you are a bobby and they are senior management. I know each of the original NPAS SLT very well indeed. Believe me when I tell you their M.O when it comes to strategy, knowledge and delivery, is second to none. They have some of the very best aviators and police officers at NPAS. The problem is more complicated. Since NPAS was set up, their ranks have burgeoned. This is often the case with a new 'empire'. Solicitors, accountants, planners, marketing, procurement and of course - lately - our beloved PCC's have all come to the table and want a slice of the action. It seems they are 'necessary evils' as part of the growing process of setting up the UK's biggest onshore helicopter operation. Politics shows its hand with various constabularies not wanting to join through sheer stubborness, even though it's a Home Office mandate - the best example for this being the MET who stalled and stalled for months until the two CC's met head to head and realised what was happening behind their backs. Finally - just as clear air was forming - HMG delivered the second (and hopefully) final tranche of austerity with this massive reduction in budget and at the most inopportune moment. The head of NPAS has also been given a very short timeline within which he has to act.
The 'baby' never got out of its cot!
Hawarden (Chester) now covers: Liverpool city centre, Cheshire, Cumbria and the WHOLE of North Wales with one cab.
This isn't a service it's a token gesture which will not stand the test of time.
15 a/c to cover the whole of the UK is a joke. One day a minister in DfT will wake up and make a name for him/herself and decide it is not cost effective to continue like this and do away with aerial police support (except for several FW dotted strategically around the UK for terorism issues).
NPAS days are numbered. What a terrible shame after so much effort by so many people over so many years.
Governmental vandalism.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
I'm sure PAN could help with this, how is police aviation actually positioned elsewhere in Europe? Given the location of the bases, I'm sure 'someone' could knock up a 20 minute circle picture of the rest of Europe and we could see how we compare with others..
A list by country/bases would be good, thanks
A list by country/bases would be good, thanks
