Definitions
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Definitions
“Land as soon as possible” and "Land immediately"
I'm re-writing some Flip-Cards and I'd like to seek some consensus.
Eurocopter differentiate between them, wrongly, in my view. Perhaps a language thing?
I'm re-writing some Flip-Cards and I'd like to seek some consensus.
Eurocopter differentiate between them, wrongly, in my view. Perhaps a language thing?
Last edited by MBJ; 16th Feb 2015 at 17:39. Reason: finger trouble
"Land Immediately" - land on whatever is currently between your feet.
"Land as soon as possible" - Land wherever a safe landing can be carried out. Do not prolong flight for more than necessary.
"Land as soon as possible" - Land wherever a safe landing can be carried out. Do not prolong flight for more than necessary.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
MBJ;
Eurocopter differentiate between them, wrongly, in my view. Perhaps a language thing?
Eurocopter differentiate between them, wrongly, in my view. Perhaps a language thing?
LAND IMMEDIATELY
The urgency of landing is paramount. Primary consideration is to assure survival of the occupants. Landing in water, trees or other unsafe areas should be considered only as a last resort.
LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
Land without delay at the nearest adequate site (i.e. open field) at which a safe approach and landing can be made.
LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE
The landing site and duration of flight are at the discretion of the pilot. Extended flight beyond the nearest approved landing area where appropriate assistance can be ex- pected is not recommended.
From an EC FLM.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Is this a 'language thing?
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...Appendices.pdf
1 GENERAL 1.1 Wording
The emergency procedures describe the actions the pilot must perform according to the various cases of failure. However, according to the high diversity of the outside factors and type of terrain overflown, the pilot may have to adapt to the conditions from his experience. To help the pilot in his decision, the following four expressions are used:
LAND OR DITCH IMMEDIATELY
Self-explanatory.
LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
Emergency conditions, land at the nearest site where a safe landing is possible.
LIMIT DURATION OF FLIGHT
Land at the nearest site at which technical assistance may be expected. Extended flight is not recommended. Duration of flight is left to the pilot’s discretion taking into account the operational environment.
CONTINUE THE FLIGHT
Self-explanatory.
LAND / DITCH IMMEDIATELY
The consequences of continued flight are likely to be more hazardous than, for example, ditching or landing in trees. Where the instruction "Land or ditch immediately" is given in a checklist, the procedure for 'emergency landing' should be followed.
On the other side of the coin/pond
http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/.../r22_poh_3.pdf
Land Immediately - Land on the nearest clear area where a safe normal landing can be performed. Be prepared to enter autorotation during approach, if required.
Land as soon as practical - Landing site is at pilot’s discretion based on nature of problem and available landing areas. Flight beyond nearest airport is not recommended.
1 GENERAL 1.1 Wording
The emergency procedures describe the actions the pilot must perform according to the various cases of failure. However, according to the high diversity of the outside factors and type of terrain overflown, the pilot may have to adapt to the conditions from his experience. To help the pilot in his decision, the following four expressions are used:
LAND OR DITCH IMMEDIATELY
Self-explanatory.
LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
Emergency conditions, land at the nearest site where a safe landing is possible.
LIMIT DURATION OF FLIGHT
Land at the nearest site at which technical assistance may be expected. Extended flight is not recommended. Duration of flight is left to the pilot’s discretion taking into account the operational environment.
CONTINUE THE FLIGHT
Self-explanatory.
LAND / DITCH IMMEDIATELY
The consequences of continued flight are likely to be more hazardous than, for example, ditching or landing in trees. Where the instruction "Land or ditch immediately" is given in a checklist, the procedure for 'emergency landing' should be followed.
On the other side of the coin/pond
http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/.../r22_poh_3.pdf
Land Immediately - Land on the nearest clear area where a safe normal landing can be performed. Be prepared to enter autorotation during approach, if required.
Land as soon as practical - Landing site is at pilot’s discretion based on nature of problem and available landing areas. Flight beyond nearest airport is not recommended.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
In a nutshell, as B73 said 
.... unless you're in a Robbo
.... unless you're in a Robbo
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LOL @ the robo comment...
As said before, Land immediately:
Conditions that may result in severe injury or fatal outcomes: Generally speaking in a land immediately situation the pilot could assume that the Helicopter will most likely suffer significant damage however, as can be seen from the below list of potential reasons the helicopter may already be suffering from significant damage.
Cabin Fires, and uncontrolled engine fires.
Main Transmission malfunctions... Grinding gearbox with known other conditions such as High temp, No Oil, chip lights.
Hydraulic failure of one system (dual system) with impending failure of the secondary system (that'd be some scary crap).
Main Rotor damage resulting in an imbalance (probably don't have long before tranny is torn apart).
Completely out of fuel over hazardous terrain with no prospect of making it to a safe landing area before flameout (over water or some of those very large forests/mountainous areas).
Single pilot ops where pilot is suffering from imminent incapacitation (Heart Attack/Stroke/Seziures).
Replacing a helicopter is cheap compared to the cost of medical bills, lost lives, lawsuits and lost customers/clients.
Conditions that may result in severe injury or fatal outcomes: Generally speaking in a land immediately situation the pilot could assume that the Helicopter will most likely suffer significant damage however, as can be seen from the below list of potential reasons the helicopter may already be suffering from significant damage.
Cabin Fires, and uncontrolled engine fires.
Main Transmission malfunctions... Grinding gearbox with known other conditions such as High temp, No Oil, chip lights.
Hydraulic failure of one system (dual system) with impending failure of the secondary system (that'd be some scary crap).
Main Rotor damage resulting in an imbalance (probably don't have long before tranny is torn apart).
Completely out of fuel over hazardous terrain with no prospect of making it to a safe landing area before flameout (over water or some of those very large forests/mountainous areas).
Single pilot ops where pilot is suffering from imminent incapacitation (Heart Attack/Stroke/Seziures).
Replacing a helicopter is cheap compared to the cost of medical bills, lost lives, lawsuits and lost customers/clients.
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CONTINUE FLIGHT
Self Explanatory
Self Explanatory
A good definition in my view is:-
CONTINUE FLIGHT
If the fault persists or returns after clearing, the decision to continue as planned or to take alternative action shall consider:
a. Whether the fault can be deferred under the MEL for a subsequent takeoff
b. The operational implications of being AOG after the next landing
c. The implications of further deterioration of the affected system
If the fault clears, the flight may continue as planned without restriction.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Of course, no matter what is said here;
"These procedures deal with common emergencies. However, they do not prevent the pilot from taking additional action necessary to recover the emergency situation.
Although the procedures contained in this Section are considered the best available, the pilots sound judgement is of paramount importance when confronted with an emergency.
To assist the pilot during an inflight emergency, three basic rules have been established:
1. Maintain aircraft control
2. Analyse the situation
3. Take proper action
NOTE It is impossible to establish a predetermined set of instructions which would provide a ready-made decision applicable to all situations."
Although the procedures contained in this Section are considered the best available, the pilots sound judgement is of paramount importance when confronted with an emergency.
To assist the pilot during an inflight emergency, three basic rules have been established:
1. Maintain aircraft control
2. Analyse the situation
3. Take proper action
NOTE It is impossible to establish a predetermined set of instructions which would provide a ready-made decision applicable to all situations."
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
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Thanks to all for the input
I think I'm going to quit banging my head against the terminology but....
I know the Brit military and others define "land immediately" as on whatever terrain you're flying over. Trees, water, buildings? etc. So, to save your own sorry backside you endanger people below you.
Landing in trees is not for the faint-hearted and depending on their height you could scribble yourself and all your pax anyway. Then burn the evidence, in the post-crash fire.
Landing civvies in the Thames, say, in a non-floated heli, you're going to drown someone for sure.
Surely 30 seconds spent landing somewhere survivable is a better solution.
Fascinating to hear that Bell doesn't use "Land immediately" now. I'll never be unkind about their use of English again! (The Bell 212 rate of climb tables that had only negative numbers comes to mind!)
I know the Brit military and others define "land immediately" as on whatever terrain you're flying over. Trees, water, buildings? etc. So, to save your own sorry backside you endanger people below you.
Landing in trees is not for the faint-hearted and depending on their height you could scribble yourself and all your pax anyway. Then burn the evidence, in the post-crash fire.
Landing civvies in the Thames, say, in a non-floated heli, you're going to drown someone for sure.
Surely 30 seconds spent landing somewhere survivable is a better solution.
Fascinating to hear that Bell doesn't use "Land immediately" now. I'll never be unkind about their use of English again! (The Bell 212 rate of climb tables that had only negative numbers comes to mind!)
Last edited by MBJ; 18th Feb 2015 at 11:29. Reason: Typo and add text
Surely 30 seconds spent landing somewhere survivable is a better solution
Agree with 212 (I normally do...). Set around 15% torque and start descending in a rapid but controlled manner, then adjust the flight path vector to point into wind or to a flat area of ground. The important thing is to start the descent NOW, not in 5 minutes.
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steve_oc seems to suggest a pragmatic workable definition:
LAND IMMEDIATELY - enter a descent and look for somewhere to land
LAND ASAP - look for somewhere to land and enter a descent
Matthew
LAND IMMEDIATELY - enter a descent and look for somewhere to land
LAND ASAP - look for somewhere to land and enter a descent
Matthew
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With great respect, I think steve_oc is off by one definition (except that he is also right to say descend now and pick an angle to the best place - good words). Looking for a good place to land is "land as soon as possible", "land immediately" is land in the place that is between your shoes in the chin window (bravo 73 had it right). I wrote these words into the flight manuals for at least two currently flying models, so I think I know that the words are intended to mean.
Land Immediately generally means be quite ready to ditch, or even put it in the trees below. In some models the RFM guidence is to descend to a low altitude, reduce speed to minimize power and then fly toward a safe landing area. If any further degradation takes place, land now right below. In such a case, land immediately means: "Not for the faint of heart. You are going to hit the ground very soon, do you want to be the pilot, or just an occupant? If you want to be the pilot, pick a place to control the landing. If you want to be an occupant, pussyfoot around looking for a nice place and risk having the machine make your decision for you."
Airplanes make the decision easier, because any off airport landing is a crissis. As Bob Hoover put it: "If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible."
Land Immediately generally means be quite ready to ditch, or even put it in the trees below. In some models the RFM guidence is to descend to a low altitude, reduce speed to minimize power and then fly toward a safe landing area. If any further degradation takes place, land now right below. In such a case, land immediately means: "Not for the faint of heart. You are going to hit the ground very soon, do you want to be the pilot, or just an occupant? If you want to be the pilot, pick a place to control the landing. If you want to be an occupant, pussyfoot around looking for a nice place and risk having the machine make your decision for you."
Airplanes make the decision easier, because any off airport landing is a crissis. As Bob Hoover put it: "If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible."
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Thanks Again
Some good material here, and thanks for all the input. I have to say I particular like "mdovey's" summation:
" LAND IMMEDIATELY - enter a descent and look for somewhere to land
LAND ASAP - look for somewhere to land and enter a descent"
And the Poole Harbour link deserves another airing:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...4%20G-BBHM.pdf
" LAND IMMEDIATELY - enter a descent and look for somewhere to land
LAND ASAP - look for somewhere to land and enter a descent"
And the Poole Harbour link deserves another airing:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...4%20G-BBHM.pdf
