LONG LINE TRAINING ! DANGEROUS OR NOT!
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LONG LINE TRAINING ! DANGEROUS OR NOT!
Hi all
Recently completed longline traing in an R44
Spent most of the time at 200 ft AGL ( altitude 2500ft 80degrees F)
In a high hover at zero forward speed ( 10 kts wind) with a 800llb Steel line
And hook.
Very limited experience on a 44 can anyone ( and I mean,someone who actually knows the answer no speculators please) in the know tell me the procedure if the engine quits
Just want to know if your gonna walk limp or need a box to get away from it .
Let's assume no time to dump the line or the hook release is jammed .
Solutions please gentlemen.
Recently completed longline traing in an R44
Spent most of the time at 200 ft AGL ( altitude 2500ft 80degrees F)
In a high hover at zero forward speed ( 10 kts wind) with a 800llb Steel line
And hook.
Very limited experience on a 44 can anyone ( and I mean,someone who actually knows the answer no speculators please) in the know tell me the procedure if the engine quits
Just want to know if your gonna walk limp or need a box to get away from it .
Let's assume no time to dump the line or the hook release is jammed .
Solutions please gentlemen.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Well....I have 23,000 flight hours and over 12,000 of that is on a longline and I'm still here....
But seriously....if you are at very low to no airspeed you will be hammering that collective down to save rotor rpm...you will be doing a vertical auto anyways, so I would not worry too much about jettisoning the line.
We used to do verticals in jet rangers anywhere from 30 to 150 ft hovers....I don't know about an R44 only ever tried full on's with some airspeed and a flare....rotor inertia is pretty good. Seems to me if you did it right, you would walk away...but probably would have some bent skid gear. Go find an instructor capable of doing full on verticals.....lots of that done here in Canada.
But seriously....if you are at very low to no airspeed you will be hammering that collective down to save rotor rpm...you will be doing a vertical auto anyways, so I would not worry too much about jettisoning the line.
We used to do verticals in jet rangers anywhere from 30 to 150 ft hovers....I don't know about an R44 only ever tried full on's with some airspeed and a flare....rotor inertia is pretty good. Seems to me if you did it right, you would walk away...but probably would have some bent skid gear. Go find an instructor capable of doing full on verticals.....lots of that done here in Canada.
Yes you should be able to dump the line. You have a switch right on the cyclic.
If that fails, don't worry, just dump the collective and do a vertical descent and time the pull at the bottom. It has been done.
If that fails, don't worry, just dump the collective and do a vertical descent and time the pull at the bottom. It has been done.
if you can dive forward to get a bit of airspeed it may help. ive done autos from 500' hover in an R44 but its all over fairly quickly. I'm not convinced you'd be walking away from a 200' vertical descent auto in an R44, but i'm sure someone will be along to correct me soon enough.
Just take a look at the 'Avoid area' in the height/velocity diagramme.
I dont fly R44, men for most helos 200AGL and no or low speed is quite in the middle of the avoid area.
I dont fly R44, men for most helos 200AGL and no or low speed is quite in the middle of the avoid area.
vertical autos in a 44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpHMqvoD4j0
you can skip forward to 1:30...
This is with 2 on board and is no problem.
You've just got to have your thumb out your ass for the entry, and the other on the release switch for the cable.
While in the hover you should try not to let go of anything and be ready all the time for dumping into the entry. At 200ft you can leave the collective on the floor until the bottom of the auto, and then put it in the roof.
Remember, machines are insured...
you can skip forward to 1:30...
This is with 2 on board and is no problem.
You've just got to have your thumb out your ass for the entry, and the other on the release switch for the cable.
While in the hover you should try not to let go of anything and be ready all the time for dumping into the entry. At 200ft you can leave the collective on the floor until the bottom of the auto, and then put it in the roof.
Remember, machines are insured...
pdoyle
I know a lot less than nothing about longlining but know enough to understand that it puts you right in the middle of the dead man's curve. Are you telling us that while you did a course in it you diid not get any training in what to do if the engine quits???
I know a lot less than nothing about longlining but know enough to understand that it puts you right in the middle of the dead man's curve. Are you telling us that while you did a course in it you diid not get any training in what to do if the engine quits???
ask them to now go back and record footage with full power removal. I reckon things may be slightly different. You only need to see the blades at the landing to know they are still under power. Not realistic im afraid. If an engine stops, it stops, which was what was being discussed. (if the engine quits) NOT loses power, allowing a partial power auto. 
I still think unless youve trained a lot in that position, it'll catch you out quickly.
I still think unless youve trained a lot in that position, it'll catch you out quickly.
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.....and by the time you've realised the engine has failed you will be on the ground. I'd be very surprised if you were able to think of dumping the line at a typical longline height.
Phil
Phil
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Phil is right...time is very, very short. I had a 500 t/r abrasion strip exit on my aircraft while I was on a 150' line many years ago on a steep slope....in a millisecond the t/r gearbox exited also while in a hover at a high power setting.....the violent yaw of course forced the throttle being closed and dumping the collective...never once did jettisoning the line enter the equation.
Upon contact with the sloping ground, the long line became taut enough to prevent the aircraft from rolling or sliding down the hill....I think it saved my ass when I look back on it....!!!??!!
Upon contact with the sloping ground, the long line became taut enough to prevent the aircraft from rolling or sliding down the hill....I think it saved my ass when I look back on it....!!!??!!
ask them to now go back and record footage with full power removal. I reckon things may be slightly different. You only need to see the blades at the landing to know they are still under power. Not realistic im afraid. If an engine stops, it stops, which was what was being discussed. (if the engine quits) NOT loses power, allowing a partial power auto.
I still think unless youve trained a lot in that position, it'll catch you out quickly.
I still think unless youve trained a lot in that position, it'll catch you out quickly.
I've newer flown the R44. Is inertia about the same as B206?
If I remember it right things start to get rough on the office if hovering above 30 feet and trying an auto from there.
I dont Think 200AGL/zero speed is the best place to be when the only engine quits. The height/velocity diagram is there for a reason. Also, the pilot that did the test flights knew that it will be an auto, he also probably was at least average at doing autos.
That said, some times you need to be there.
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Dangerous?
"ask them to now go back and record footage with full power removal. I reckon things may be slightly different. You only need to see the blades at the landing to know they are still under power. Not realistic im afraid. If an engine stops, it stops, which was what was being discussed. (if the engine quits) NOT loses power, allowing a partial power auto."
This looked pretty genuine to me..the needles were split all the way down so no help from the engine even when he pulled collective at the bottom. However, he was pretty light, just him and a fixed camera.
However in answer to your question - I reckon a lot more dangerous than A to B charter, but also probably much better paid and at least for a while, more fun! Stay alert, do try to pickle the line off and don't land on your load!
This looked pretty genuine to me..the needles were split all the way down so no help from the engine even when he pulled collective at the bottom. However, he was pretty light, just him and a fixed camera.
However in answer to your question - I reckon a lot more dangerous than A to B charter, but also probably much better paid and at least for a while, more fun! Stay alert, do try to pickle the line off and don't land on your load!
Well I do a couple of hundred hours on a line here in UK. Line is only 50 ft as don't need any more than that ( I know it is strictly not long !)
The thought of dumping the line would be the last thing to do, getting the collective down and praying comes first !!!
The thought of dumping the line would be the last thing to do, getting the collective down and praying comes first !!!
Last edited by Hughes500; 16th Feb 2015 at 20:33.
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Spent 3/4 (about 14k) of my flying life in the avoid curve, in different environments (mountain, flat, sea, ice) and have flown everything between 30 and 200 feet.
I guess I would not have the time to dump the line.
Maybe, if I'm lucky, the sequence will be:
- surprise
- action
- changing underwear
- having a big Dram*
* for non Scots: Dram = Glass of Malt
I guess I would not have the time to dump the line.
Maybe, if I'm lucky, the sequence will be:
- surprise
- action
- changing underwear
- having a big Dram*
* for non Scots: Dram = Glass of Malt
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The thought of dumping the line would be the last thing to do, getting the collective down and praying comes first !!!
Helilog56
Well....I have 23,000 flight hours and over 12,000 of that is on a longline and I'm still here....
Well....I have 23,000 flight hours and over 12,000 of that is on a longline and I'm still here....
Flying all day in this kind of position must be quite agonising after a while? (Maybe aside from the A-Star with the mod with the window in the floor...)
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Sorry for going off topic here but i cant help myself but ask: Can you still walk upright or are you all crooked? Serious back issues?
Flying all day in this kind of position must be quite agonising after a while? (Maybe aside from the A-Star with the mod with the window in the floor...)
Ovrr the years, I worked hard at keeping physically fit. Even pushing 60, I have no back problems at all. The biggest problem I encountered over the years was an extruded disc in my neck, that once I took a break healed up quite well with only a bit of nerve damage.
I'm on an easier gig these days....working on a fire contract in Istanbul for Erickson. My full time logging days are behind me.....
Flying all day in this kind of position must be quite agonising after a while? (Maybe aside from the A-Star with the mod with the window in the floor...)
Ovrr the years, I worked hard at keeping physically fit. Even pushing 60, I have no back problems at all. The biggest problem I encountered over the years was an extruded disc in my neck, that once I took a break healed up quite well with only a bit of nerve damage.
I'm on an easier gig these days....working on a fire contract in Istanbul for Erickson. My full time logging days are behind me.....
