ATPL(H)/VFR vs IFR
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ATPL(H)/VFR vs IFR
hi there! I am new in this site and a bit lost. I ve got a question but aint got a clue whom I should address it to.
the thing is that I am a Spanish pilot, CPL plus IR, I have also got ATPL theory recently (all possible subjects ). I am planning to cope with the ATPL flight test shortly but when it comes to make a decision whether to apply for the ATPL VFR flight test or ATPL IFR one I become tangled. The thing is that if I decide to undergo the simplest ( and cheaper) option, that is to say, VFR test, would it mean my current IR would only be valid in just those flights in which I perform not as an airline pilot.?
sorry for my English and for such long question.
thanks
the thing is that I am a Spanish pilot, CPL plus IR, I have also got ATPL theory recently (all possible subjects ). I am planning to cope with the ATPL flight test shortly but when it comes to make a decision whether to apply for the ATPL VFR flight test or ATPL IFR one I become tangled. The thing is that if I decide to undergo the simplest ( and cheaper) option, that is to say, VFR test, would it mean my current IR would only be valid in just those flights in which I perform not as an airline pilot.?
sorry for my English and for such long question.
thanks
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I am afraid that cannot be the difference since I am MP IR rated as many others are, or maybe it is the way you say but my national civil av authority misinterprets the rules.
on the other hand when reading appendix 9 to part FCL which describes atpl flight check it reads "The test/check should be accomplished under IFR, if the IR rating is included, .....", as far as I can understand it means that if you have already got your IR rating there is no need for you to accomplish that part of the check (which I think corresponds to section 5 out of the 6 possible sections within).
thanks anyway
on the other hand when reading appendix 9 to part FCL which describes atpl flight check it reads "The test/check should be accomplished under IFR, if the IR rating is included, .....", as far as I can understand it means that if you have already got your IR rating there is no need for you to accomplish that part of the check (which I think corresponds to section 5 out of the 6 possible sections within).
thanks anyway
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Hi, my excuses for insisting on the issue. The thing is that for the time being no one has not cast a little beam of light on my question about differences between ATPL VFR and IFR. I ve seen from other forums you might be the person to help me.
In my case I am a helicopter pilot, IR rated and MP.I have all ATPL subjects. My IR rating is not presently linked to any type rating. Being so I am planning to undergo ATPL(H)-VFR test flight.
If I get this ATPL(H)-VFR.....
- What limitations in operations would I have compared to an ATPL(H)-IFR?
- What should I do if, later on, I decide to become full ATPL(H)-IFR?
Thanks in advance
regards
In my case I am a helicopter pilot, IR rated and MP.I have all ATPL subjects. My IR rating is not presently linked to any type rating. Being so I am planning to undergo ATPL(H)-VFR test flight.
If I get this ATPL(H)-VFR.....
- What limitations in operations would I have compared to an ATPL(H)-IFR?
- What should I do if, later on, I decide to become full ATPL(H)-IFR?
Thanks in advance
regards
Lmedel,
answer these questions:
1. Your IR, is it (a) a FW IR. Or is it a military IR?
2. Do you have an ATPL(H)IR?
IF you have an ATPL(H)IR you can fly IFR and VFR.
If you do not have an ATPL(H)IR, but only an ATPL(H), you cannot fly in certain airspace IMC.
IF you have a military IR, you cannot use it in civilian operations. So you cannot fly IFR (civil airspace, IMC using your ATPL).
If you have a FW IR you can fly IFR or VFR in your helicopter.
All of the above requires you to be TYPE rated.
.
You need to do an IR course on helicopters, which is about £30-40,000.
answer these questions:
1. Your IR, is it (a) a FW IR. Or is it a military IR?
2. Do you have an ATPL(H)IR?
IF you have an ATPL(H)IR you can fly IFR and VFR.
If you do not have an ATPL(H)IR, but only an ATPL(H), you cannot fly in certain airspace IMC.
IF you have a military IR, you cannot use it in civilian operations. So you cannot fly IFR (civil airspace, IMC using your ATPL).
If you have a FW IR you can fly IFR or VFR in your helicopter.
All of the above requires you to be TYPE rated.
What should I do if, later on, I decide to become full ATPL(H)-IFR
You need to do an IR course on helicopters, which is about £30-40,000.
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Thanks for your prompt reply Thomas. Though having military background I have all the above mentioned ratings not only in my military license but also in my "civilian" one. I underwent the necesary flight checks so as to have my present Multipilot, IR rating (helicopters only) out of the military environment. My IR rating is not linked to my present valid B412 type rating, which is the model I planned to take the ATPL(H) flight test with.
Of course after getting the ATPL (H) VFR I would also have my IR rating and I guess I can annotate in the future the IR rating in my B412 type rating (2 hours of simulator).
With this scenario I cannot clearly see how degraded I would be compared to an ATPL(H)-IFR.
A bit of a mess maybe, but I dont get to express it in a better way
Thanks again
Of course after getting the ATPL (H) VFR I would also have my IR rating and I guess I can annotate in the future the IR rating in my B412 type rating (2 hours of simulator).
With this scenario I cannot clearly see how degraded I would be compared to an ATPL(H)-IFR.
A bit of a mess maybe, but I dont get to express it in a better way
Thanks again
If you have access to the helicopter, examiner, and meet all of the requirements for the ATPL (IR) checkride, then just do the IFR Checkride, that way you can fly VFR or IFR. I'm not totally up to speed on the new ATPL rules etc but it als depends what you wish to do with your licence. Do you wish to have IR privileges or will you only be flying VFR anyway. Why do two checkrides if you can do just one.
OK, so the way I see it is that you are about to upgrade to an ATPL standard, from your current CPL rating. You already have a civilian IR. After getting your ATPL, you will then have an ATPL(H)IR.
This means your flying is totally unrestricted and you can fly in ALL classified airspace in IMC. It also naturally means all VFR as well!
Safe flying
This means your flying is totally unrestricted and you can fly in ALL classified airspace in IMC. It also naturally means all VFR as well!
Safe flying
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Thanks to both of you. That is what I wanted to hear and what I did not so far. I expected that there should not be a difference between ATPL IFR and ATPL VFR plus IR rating.
Helimut pointed out that there is no reason why I would not want to take the ATPL check-ride straight forward, I would fully agree if I had the IR rating in the type I wanted to make the examination with.
Facing the ATPL(H) VFR flight check as that involves less money investment than ATPL(H) IFR, firstly, due to no previous IR training to extend my IR to the type (B412) and , second, it seems the ATPL-VFR check-ride (with no extra IFR items) is a bit shorter hence a bit more economical.
Thanks again for your very helpful replies.
Best regards
Helimut pointed out that there is no reason why I would not want to take the ATPL check-ride straight forward, I would fully agree if I had the IR rating in the type I wanted to make the examination with.
Facing the ATPL(H) VFR flight check as that involves less money investment than ATPL(H) IFR, firstly, due to no previous IR training to extend my IR to the type (B412) and , second, it seems the ATPL-VFR check-ride (with no extra IFR items) is a bit shorter hence a bit more economical.
Thanks again for your very helpful replies.
Best regards
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There is no such thing as "ATPL(H) IR"……basically, you get an ATPL(H)…..then you can fly as PIC on Multi-Pilot Helicopter..
The IR is just an "add on"-so a MPH IR is similar to the "old" second part of the ATPL-checkride (which consisted of a VFR and an IFR part…)..
I will be doing some checks in the simulator in Stockholm soon…..if you are interested….not sure if it would be cheaper than doing it at your home place, though…(Flights to Stockholm and back are around 300 Euros there and back)..
Let me know if you should want to jump in….i have 2 candidates so far..
The IR is just an "add on"-so a MPH IR is similar to the "old" second part of the ATPL-checkride (which consisted of a VFR and an IFR part…)..
I will be doing some checks in the simulator in Stockholm soon…..if you are interested….not sure if it would be cheaper than doing it at your home place, though…(Flights to Stockholm and back are around 300 Euros there and back)..
Let me know if you should want to jump in….i have 2 candidates so far..
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Thanks for your offer hueyracer! I will study it. Anyway my intention now would go for the ATPL-VFR check which I think will lead me to the goal I pursue currently.
Best regards
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CPL to ATP
Hi everyone,
What do you think about this…
I have been flying since 1980 in Europe and Overseas, holding a current JAA-CPL(H) and two ICAO ATPL(H) licenses. Presently flying Multi Pilot IR aircraft/operation outside Europe.
It is time to get the JAA license to EASA. All I would have to do is a proficiency check to change from JAA to EASA-CPL.
I have been thinking about going to ATPL level and that is where the problem starts. Inquired with the authorities and the result is, that I get only three credits (010-082-091). Basically I have to write 11 exams for an ATP without IR or 12 for ATP with IR. Does that make sense holding already an EASA CPL license? Studying never stops i know but basically doing all of it again, I think that is overboard.
Is this handled the same way in every EASA land? Should I transfer my license to another country or just let EASA go?
What do you think about this…
I have been flying since 1980 in Europe and Overseas, holding a current JAA-CPL(H) and two ICAO ATPL(H) licenses. Presently flying Multi Pilot IR aircraft/operation outside Europe.
It is time to get the JAA license to EASA. All I would have to do is a proficiency check to change from JAA to EASA-CPL.
I have been thinking about going to ATPL level and that is where the problem starts. Inquired with the authorities and the result is, that I get only three credits (010-082-091). Basically I have to write 11 exams for an ATP without IR or 12 for ATP with IR. Does that make sense holding already an EASA CPL license? Studying never stops i know but basically doing all of it again, I think that is overboard.
Is this handled the same way in every EASA land? Should I transfer my license to another country or just let EASA go?
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That's nonsense - if you have an amendment 3 JAA CPL(H), that is now an ATPL(H) (VFR). You just need 4 of the IR subjects for the full ATP.
Several ppruners have sorted that out already.
I am assuming that you've had your JAA licence since 1980!
Phil
Several ppruners have sorted that out already.
I am assuming that you've had your JAA licence since 1980!
Phil
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In my very personal case I have got a full equivalence between my amendment 3 CPL(H) and all theoretical knowledge needed for ATPL; many others in a very close to mine situation have been headed to most of the ATPL exams.... they all have gone to the Courts for whats seems to be a very capricious application of rules.
When it comes to have not just the simple theoretical ATPL pack but also the full ATPL license you have to undergo a flight check, no matter if you are IR rated or not, if you have already a multipilot type rating or if you have feathers planted in your arms.
What is more, if you are IR (as I am) and take the ATPL (VFR) flight check then you become a sort of ATPL(VFR) pilot who can also flight in heaven knows what circumstances in IMC conditions.
In my opinion this should be one question to raise to EASA to have guidance.
Regards
When it comes to have not just the simple theoretical ATPL pack but also the full ATPL license you have to undergo a flight check, no matter if you are IR rated or not, if you have already a multipilot type rating or if you have feathers planted in your arms.
What is more, if you are IR (as I am) and take the ATPL (VFR) flight check then you become a sort of ATPL(VFR) pilot who can also flight in heaven knows what circumstances in IMC conditions.
In my opinion this should be one question to raise to EASA to have guidance.
Regards
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then you become a sort of ATPL(VFR) pilot who can also flight in heaven knows what circumstances in IMC conditions
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I did not make myself clear. what i meant was that being, as I am, IFR rated and CPL(H) one seems to have two choices once you have theoretical ATPL:
ATPL-VFR or ATPL-IR flight checks.
If you face the first option apparently you get an ATPL license with restrictions to VMC environment.(what seems absurd being already IR)
If, on the other hand, you choose to take the VFR plus IFR flight test (which has additional IFR items) then you get an ATPL-IFR license, what to my eyes seems a lot ludicrous. In fact the embrio of this thread deals with the fact that no one had a clear idea about the differences between being IR plus ATPL-VFR and being an ATPL licensed pilot without IFR restrictions (second choice).
I am sure there will be different views in different countries. As far As I see it up to this point there should not be an IFR rated pilot with an ATPL restricted to VFR, that is nonsense.
Luis
ATPL-VFR or ATPL-IR flight checks.
If you face the first option apparently you get an ATPL license with restrictions to VMC environment.(what seems absurd being already IR)
If, on the other hand, you choose to take the VFR plus IFR flight test (which has additional IFR items) then you get an ATPL-IFR license, what to my eyes seems a lot ludicrous. In fact the embrio of this thread deals with the fact that no one had a clear idea about the differences between being IR plus ATPL-VFR and being an ATPL licensed pilot without IFR restrictions (second choice).
I am sure there will be different views in different countries. As far As I see it up to this point there should not be an IFR rated pilot with an ATPL restricted to VFR, that is nonsense.
Luis
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The ATPL VFR was apparently introduced to cover pilots in Switzerland who had to fly heavy iron but who were not going to go IFR in that environment.
Here are the rules:
In JAR Amendment 6 (10) "the holder of a CPL(H) gained under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge requirements for ATPL(H)."
It is our opinion that, if you have a CPL(H) issued under JAR FCL Amendment 3, that is the equivalent of the ATPL(H)(VFR) in terms of theoretical knowledge - paragraph 2.050(b)(10) refers. This credit was carried over into Part FCL. In addition, Article 4(1) of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 refers to JAR compliant licences being deemed to be Part FCL licences. The legal definition of "JAR Compliant" licence is in Article 2, which refers to licences, ratings, certificates, authorisations and other qualifications issued or recognised by a State, reflecting "JAR and procedures". We interpret this to include ATPL(H) TK credit.
Phil
Here are the rules:
In JAR Amendment 6 (10) "the holder of a CPL(H) gained under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge requirements for ATPL(H)."
It is our opinion that, if you have a CPL(H) issued under JAR FCL Amendment 3, that is the equivalent of the ATPL(H)(VFR) in terms of theoretical knowledge - paragraph 2.050(b)(10) refers. This credit was carried over into Part FCL. In addition, Article 4(1) of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 refers to JAR compliant licences being deemed to be Part FCL licences. The legal definition of "JAR Compliant" licence is in Article 2, which refers to licences, ratings, certificates, authorisations and other qualifications issued or recognised by a State, reflecting "JAR and procedures". We interpret this to include ATPL(H) TK credit.
Phil
