USCG stuck: Bodega Bay
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Here's a google maps link which shows the situation.
https://goo.gl/maps/rlDlK
It's not the middle of nowhere, it's a very popular spot. Note the parking lots. Note the paved roads. The spot they chose to land is at bottom center, between the two trails. The boy fell off the cliff at bottom center.
Diginagain, love that quote:
"Heavy fog forced the helicopter to land on a slope during the rescue "
Um... no. How does fog force one to land on a slope? As opposed to a parking lot 300 yds/meters away? Critics, no problem. Thankfully, I'm never going to fly with you. This is a "controlled flight into terrain" situation, completely avoidable.
Here's another local war story, where the pilot took two nurses with him:
Untitled Page
With great power comes great responsibility. And a man has to know his limitations.
https://goo.gl/maps/rlDlK
It's not the middle of nowhere, it's a very popular spot. Note the parking lots. Note the paved roads. The spot they chose to land is at bottom center, between the two trails. The boy fell off the cliff at bottom center.
Diginagain, love that quote:
"Heavy fog forced the helicopter to land on a slope during the rescue "
Um... no. How does fog force one to land on a slope? As opposed to a parking lot 300 yds/meters away? Critics, no problem. Thankfully, I'm never going to fly with you. This is a "controlled flight into terrain" situation, completely avoidable.
Here's another local war story, where the pilot took two nurses with him:
Untitled Page
With great power comes great responsibility. And a man has to know his limitations.
Originally Posted by PrivtPilotRadarTech
Um... no. How does fog force one to land on a slope? As opposed to a parking lot 300 yds/meters away?
Originally Posted by PrivtPilotRadarTech
Thankfully, I'm never going to fly with you.
Originally Posted by PrivtPilotRadarTech
And a man has to know his limitations.
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John,
I am solidly on the side of the Crew in this. They landed safely. The Aircraft is fine. They are fine. The Casualty is in Hospital.
It all worked out in the end with no harm done.
It could very easily have gone horribly wrong but they made the right decision and parked the machine.
Bravo Zulu!
I am solidly on the side of the Crew in this. They landed safely. The Aircraft is fine. They are fine. The Casualty is in Hospital.
It all worked out in the end with no harm done.
It could very easily have gone horribly wrong but they made the right decision and parked the machine.
Bravo Zulu!
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I'm assuming that the crew had a gps at least as good as the $99 gps I have, which would show the terrain and roads in the vicinity of the accident. That 4 yr old boy had a compound fracture, among other severe injuries, and received a blood transfusion as soon as he got to the hospital- by road. Because the helicopter couldn't fly. What part of that is it that you don't understand? It wasn't a trivial mistake.
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As pointed out....the flight crew exercised great judgement in landing the aircraft...nobody hurt, aircraft not damaged....kudos to the crew for a job well done. 
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Prvtpltradartech, I'm curious. Would you have preferred that the crew pushed on, so that the flight report turned out like the other one you posted, where the pilot took two nurses with him in the accident?
At least that way the poor kid wouldn't be in a coma. Instead he would be DEAD!
And if that is what you call a CFIT situation, then I'm guilty of it, quite regularly, most days. I control my flight all the way down into the terrain, then I shut down. It's CFIT accidents that we are concerned about, not CFIT situations.
At least that way the poor kid wouldn't be in a coma. Instead he would be DEAD!
And if that is what you call a CFIT situation, then I'm guilty of it, quite regularly, most days. I control my flight all the way down into the terrain, then I shut down. It's CFIT accidents that we are concerned about, not CFIT situations.
Prvtpltradartech - I am guessing you have never been a commercial or professional pilot as you don't seem to understand the responsibilities of the captain of the aircraft - they start with the safety of his crew, then his aircraft and then completing the mission.
This captain made exactly the right decision - hover taxying in fog is fraught with dangers, not least the wires that most definitely are NOT marked on your GPS.
This captain made exactly the right decision - hover taxying in fog is fraught with dangers, not least the wires that most definitely are NOT marked on your GPS.
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Private Pilot is cut out to be a genuine rooting tooting US Helicopter EMS Pilot of the Old School.....the kind that forgets there was a time (and still is actually) that Injured People ride Ground Ambulances to the Trauma Center before there were Helicopters and the Attached Gods.
Experience?
Crab and BB, does it seem like the pilots who have been thru experiences akin to this are the ones who ( as I do as well ) agree that the Coasties made the smart call? I will admit to being a little influenced by contact with that group over 39 years off and on. Before even reading about the weather in play here, my inclination would have been that if a USCG pilot called it off, thats all one needed to judge the conditions.
Supportive Anecdote:
Got a call from a pilot who was in a country south of the border with a brand new S-76 sold into a head of state operation. he was doing some transition training and wound up doing a mission with the President aboard. Getting close to the destination, they ran into a situation wherein there was a really large rainstorm that had enveloped the destination and wasn't moving. No navaids or the like and it was beside a large mountain. Rather than hovering up the road in the storm, he put the machine down beside the road and called for ground transport.
I submitted this action for a safety award ( a reasonable, but spendable one ) which the pilot received and which we used at the next Safety Stand Down to emphasize the principle that several others have proposed here: when the PIC makes a decision that the circumstances do not warrant further flight, that decision ought to, and will be supported.
Some may know the pilot involved, as he has had a long and respected career. Art Tobey came to SA having been the Ch Pilot at SF Airways in their S-61 operation. Not an amateur instrument pilot either. His word and opinion were always listened to. Certainly one of SA's finest.
There is another possibility here, which may have been in play. The original news story mentioned the machine being on an angle not safe for takeoff, or words to that effect. Have no idea what the slope limits are for the 365, but if the pilot put it down, let it settle on the gear at flat pitch, and noticed that the attitude indicator showed a roll attitude a degree or two over their published limit, that may have complicated things. Does not change my assessment of their decision one whit.
Supportive Anecdote:
Got a call from a pilot who was in a country south of the border with a brand new S-76 sold into a head of state operation. he was doing some transition training and wound up doing a mission with the President aboard. Getting close to the destination, they ran into a situation wherein there was a really large rainstorm that had enveloped the destination and wasn't moving. No navaids or the like and it was beside a large mountain. Rather than hovering up the road in the storm, he put the machine down beside the road and called for ground transport.
I submitted this action for a safety award ( a reasonable, but spendable one ) which the pilot received and which we used at the next Safety Stand Down to emphasize the principle that several others have proposed here: when the PIC makes a decision that the circumstances do not warrant further flight, that decision ought to, and will be supported.
Some may know the pilot involved, as he has had a long and respected career. Art Tobey came to SA having been the Ch Pilot at SF Airways in their S-61 operation. Not an amateur instrument pilot either. His word and opinion were always listened to. Certainly one of SA's finest.
There is another possibility here, which may have been in play. The original news story mentioned the machine being on an angle not safe for takeoff, or words to that effect. Have no idea what the slope limits are for the 365, but if the pilot put it down, let it settle on the gear at flat pitch, and noticed that the attitude indicator showed a roll attitude a degree or two over their published limit, that may have complicated things. Does not change my assessment of their decision one whit.
Last edited by JohnDixson; 18th Nov 2014 at 12:00.
Avoid imitations
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I'm assuming that the crew had a gps at least as good as the $99 gps I have, which would show the terrain and roads in the vicinity of the accident.
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Here's another Bravo Zulu to the crew for not pushing on and thereby exercising true airmanship. Hopefully PrivtPilotRadarTech will take on board and learn from the posts of professional pilots who unlike him have been there and done that.
Art Tobey - super guy! I was on my honeymoon in Florida back in 1982 and he and I got mightily pissed one night, much to the displeasure of my now ex-wife!
Art Tobey - super guy! I was on my honeymoon in Florida back in 1982 and he and I got mightily pissed one night, much to the displeasure of my now ex-wife!
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Back when flying the orange machines, had a similar situation landing on some poor grazing land in light fog on a moonless night. We were following a beacon from a light airplane crash.
I defy any pilot over rural and rocky land (such as N. California) to determine from the air the slope of any wee bit of terrain + / - 10º for those points where the landing gear will contact the surface at night, in fog. $99 must go a long way for a GPS in any part of the world that will spit out that kind of data.
The terrain in our case was dusty hardpan, and it was a volcanic island, so it tended to be higher in the middle than on the edges. We could see the crashed airplane, and we concluded (rightly, as it turned out) that they had flown into the upsloping terrain. We had no Doppler, so the landing was visual and on NVGs. Flew a no-hover approach to a spot the crew agreed looked "pretty flat" and monitored the attitude until the collective was full down. We were lucky, as it all came in below 10º, though if memory serves, not much below, and we didn't shut down.
We had a plan to pull pitch and do the approach again had it turned out to be steeper than we hoped (based upon what the attitude was as we lowered the collective), as hovering around in scrub & hardpan in dark, dusty fog on an island on NVGs is as good a way to crash a helicopter as any other I've heard.
At least during my USCG days, it was considered appallingly poor form to criticize the actions of a crew when that crew wasn't handy to defend those actions.
Did we do ours correctly? No idea, and there was some lively and beery debate in the wardroom about it (and in which we joined in), but in the end we got one fellow to a proper trauma unit (the other fellow died on impact or shortly thereafter) and didn't bend the airframe so I lose no sleep about it either way.
Oh, and why did the airplane crash occur in the first place? CFII and student out on a night IFR training flight. Planned an approach to a private airport that was closed at night, so couldn't do the approach. We assume (but do not know) that they lost situational awareness while figuring out what to do next and flew into terrain. The fellow who died was the student. So far as I know, the CFII chose to take up another line of work.
I defy any pilot over rural and rocky land (such as N. California) to determine from the air the slope of any wee bit of terrain + / - 10º for those points where the landing gear will contact the surface at night, in fog. $99 must go a long way for a GPS in any part of the world that will spit out that kind of data.
The terrain in our case was dusty hardpan, and it was a volcanic island, so it tended to be higher in the middle than on the edges. We could see the crashed airplane, and we concluded (rightly, as it turned out) that they had flown into the upsloping terrain. We had no Doppler, so the landing was visual and on NVGs. Flew a no-hover approach to a spot the crew agreed looked "pretty flat" and monitored the attitude until the collective was full down. We were lucky, as it all came in below 10º, though if memory serves, not much below, and we didn't shut down.
We had a plan to pull pitch and do the approach again had it turned out to be steeper than we hoped (based upon what the attitude was as we lowered the collective), as hovering around in scrub & hardpan in dark, dusty fog on an island on NVGs is as good a way to crash a helicopter as any other I've heard.
At least during my USCG days, it was considered appallingly poor form to criticize the actions of a crew when that crew wasn't handy to defend those actions.
Did we do ours correctly? No idea, and there was some lively and beery debate in the wardroom about it (and in which we joined in), but in the end we got one fellow to a proper trauma unit (the other fellow died on impact or shortly thereafter) and didn't bend the airframe so I lose no sleep about it either way.
Oh, and why did the airplane crash occur in the first place? CFII and student out on a night IFR training flight. Planned an approach to a private airport that was closed at night, so couldn't do the approach. We assume (but do not know) that they lost situational awareness while figuring out what to do next and flew into terrain. The fellow who died was the student. So far as I know, the CFII chose to take up another line of work.
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This is very entertaining, and occasionally educational. I thank the poster who answered my question, explaining that the problem keeping the CG Dolphin from taking off was excessive slope. Regarding the "dense fog", here's a photo from the scene.
See any dense fog? Maybe the hot air from the Rotorheads forum dissipated it, and dried the "mud" the Dolphin was stuck in. Now I was quite interested in learning something new about flying. I thought Rotorheads would share some wisdom. I learned that they are mostly blowhards with little technical knowledge, incapable of simply calling a spade a spade. Not a problem, in the field of electronics we call spades spades, and strive to learn from mistakes. So I learned about the Four Ws: Wind, Wires, Way In, Way Out, and the Four Ss: Size, Shape, Slope, Surface. So the CG crew failed two of those, Way Out and Slope. I will leave you with some words of wisdom from James McCollough, Test Pilot for Bell.
"The limiting factor to any slope landing is cyclic control margin. If the pilot determines that he is approaching the limit of lateral cyclic control margin prior to being firmly planted on the slope with collective reduced to low power it is his responsibility to abort the landing attempt."
None of you mentioned that. Now you know. I feel like I may have saved some lives today.
See any dense fog? Maybe the hot air from the Rotorheads forum dissipated it, and dried the "mud" the Dolphin was stuck in. Now I was quite interested in learning something new about flying. I thought Rotorheads would share some wisdom. I learned that they are mostly blowhards with little technical knowledge, incapable of simply calling a spade a spade. Not a problem, in the field of electronics we call spades spades, and strive to learn from mistakes. So I learned about the Four Ws: Wind, Wires, Way In, Way Out, and the Four Ss: Size, Shape, Slope, Surface. So the CG crew failed two of those, Way Out and Slope. I will leave you with some words of wisdom from James McCollough, Test Pilot for Bell.
"The limiting factor to any slope landing is cyclic control margin. If the pilot determines that he is approaching the limit of lateral cyclic control margin prior to being firmly planted on the slope with collective reduced to low power it is his responsibility to abort the landing attempt."
None of you mentioned that. Now you know. I feel like I may have saved some lives today.
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Since you are quite the all knowing of all things to do with helicopters....care to enlighten us about other limitations that apply to Slope Landings? There are more than a few that apply and they vary by which direction one lands on a Slope you know.
There are different limitations imposed by the design of the aircraft as well too....but then I am so sure you know all that anyway....but just left them out for brevity sakes!
If one lands with the nose pointed uphill...where does Lateral Cyclic enter into the equation?
If you are going to play the "Troll"....at least be a reasonably educated Troll will you?
There are different limitations imposed by the design of the aircraft as well too....but then I am so sure you know all that anyway....but just left them out for brevity sakes!
If one lands with the nose pointed uphill...where does Lateral Cyclic enter into the equation?
If you are going to play the "Troll"....at least be a reasonably educated Troll will you?
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None of you mentioned that.
In the world of electronics, one usually has an opportunity to remove the component and reinstall it while seated comfortably at the bench, unless one is not versed in one's craft and goes around installing components into energized circuits.
In the world of night helicopter SAR (of which I only have a couple decades of experience) the do-over is frequently not an option.
I suspect that Mr. McCollough of Bell (since you're bandying his name about so freely) might even concede that a laden SAR aircraft alighting upon a slope of unknown pitch just might exceed its slope limitations settling upon the struts at night, upon which the prudent course of action would be to remain in place.
I have 4000 hours of experience in the very type (and indeed probably a few hundred hours in the very airframe) these pilots were flying and yet I don't feel sufficiently informed to second-guess any of their actions.
But yet you do?
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BS Bob- I'm not a BS'er. I put it right in my handle, I'm just a private pilot. But the basic concept of landing is the same: look for a good place to land. If you realize it's a bad place to land, abort. I've done that. That's what this CG pilot should have done. James McCollough had the cojones to say "it is [the pilot's] responsibility to abort the landing attempt" in this circumstance and so do I. You should grow a pair.
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Um Lifting,
I apologize, you DID reference the correct procedure for landing on a slope: "We had a plan to pull pitch and do the approach again had it turned out to be steeper than we hoped (based upon what the attitude was as we lowered the collective)"
That is exactly what the CG pilot should have done. Why can't you bring yourself to speak that truth?
But then you proceed to blow it:
"I suspect that Mr. McCollough of Bell (since you're bandying his name about so freely) might even concede that a laden SAR aircraft alighting upon a slope of unknown pitch just might exceed its slope limitations settling upon the struts at night."
That's why Mr. McCollough is an authority, and you're not. He chose his words well: "If the pilot determines that he is APPROACHING the limit of lateral cyclic control margin... it is his responsibilityto abort the landing attempt." That was the safe thing to do, and no big deal to try again nearby. But they proceeded with an unsafe landing and it resulted in mission failure, and a SAR helicopter that was out of service for 48 hrs. Those are facts. If the slope had been steeper they could have had a dynamic rollover. It was completely unnecessary, as there were many safe, flat areas to land nearby and firefighters already on scene to point them out.
You have 4000 hrs in type? This fellow SAR pilot had 12,858 hours in rotorcraft. I'm not impressed with his judgment, or yours.
I apologize, you DID reference the correct procedure for landing on a slope: "We had a plan to pull pitch and do the approach again had it turned out to be steeper than we hoped (based upon what the attitude was as we lowered the collective)"
That is exactly what the CG pilot should have done. Why can't you bring yourself to speak that truth?
But then you proceed to blow it:
"I suspect that Mr. McCollough of Bell (since you're bandying his name about so freely) might even concede that a laden SAR aircraft alighting upon a slope of unknown pitch just might exceed its slope limitations settling upon the struts at night."
That's why Mr. McCollough is an authority, and you're not. He chose his words well: "If the pilot determines that he is APPROACHING the limit of lateral cyclic control margin... it is his responsibilityto abort the landing attempt." That was the safe thing to do, and no big deal to try again nearby. But they proceeded with an unsafe landing and it resulted in mission failure, and a SAR helicopter that was out of service for 48 hrs. Those are facts. If the slope had been steeper they could have had a dynamic rollover. It was completely unnecessary, as there were many safe, flat areas to land nearby and firefighters already on scene to point them out.
You have 4000 hrs in type? This fellow SAR pilot had 12,858 hours in rotorcraft. I'm not impressed with his judgment, or yours.