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USCG stuck: Bodega Bay

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USCG stuck: Bodega Bay

Old 15th Nov 2014, 22:33
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It's a dangerous business.
No it's not - those were 3 avoidable CFITs.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 11:19
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Can hear the incoming Crab
Still a sad loss of life
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 12:52
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I did an exchange tour with the USCG, not long after the two accidents in the mid 90s, a couple of Air Stations north from Humboldt Bay.

I agree with Crab 100% on this one. SAR is only dangerous if you go out ill prepared and lacking in judgement because of deficiencies in training. The Coast Guard I saw at the time was so risk averse in the training environment, and therefore the training was so limited, that it failed to properly prepare the crews for the environment they had to operate in.

Good and brave people, nevertheless.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 12:59
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Good and brave perhaps....but not very bright either!!!!!
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 13:17
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Not really sure what you mean there Helilog, or what exactly you comment on, so I hope I'm responding appropriately.

Actually, a lot of them were very bright and experienced individuals, but good judgement doesn't only come from within. It comes from having seen similar situations in training and filters down from the whole ethos of the organization you serve in.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 14:31
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Just exactly how does One teach "Judgement"?

If we consider the latest round of CFIT crashes in the UK, combine them with the ever constant roll call of the same in the US EMS Industry, and juxtapose any number of otherwise avoidable crashes like say the R-44 losing a Tail Rotor to a fuel mat......I would offer the Rotorcraft World does not do a very good job of it in general.

This "Judgement" thing does not stop with CFIT....it applies to each and every one of us as we go about our daily business.

Essentially, is it not the art of knowing when to say "NO!"?

No, the weather is beyond MY mininums!

No, that maintenance practice is insufficient to guarantee safety!

No, the Regulation does not prevent stupid conduct!

No, I shall not put myself and others at Risk just because the Rules, Regulations, and Boss tell me I can....and will!

Just what is this thing called "Judgement" anyway?

It seems a very nebulous term that has many variations around the World.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 17:22
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CFIT is 100% avoidable....since when is training required for common sense?
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 18:07
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Really Helilog56?

So being able to get into an inlet in a rocky coastline, at night, in an onshore "50kt fog", or establishing a stable night hover 50 miles offshore with rapidly changing sea references and no horizon, is something you're just born with?

I"ll have to defer to your obviously greater knowledge and experience on that one.

That's the kind of CFIT we're talking about here, not cruising along at 2000ft until you're stupid enough to hit a hill.

Last edited by inputshaft; 16th Nov 2014 at 18:26.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 18:13
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Good and brave perhaps....but not very bright either!!!!!
a bit harsh there helilog - if your operating authority won't let you train for such conditions yet expects you to perform rescues in the same conditions then there is a certain inevitability about the outcome - very sad.

Train hard, fight easy is an excellent maxim.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 19:32
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Harsh perhaps, and yes all to sad.....but, is one that naïve, not to realize approaching conditions and turn back no matter what your operating authority or rules state?
And yes, I Have spent the better part of 38 years, flying from the Beaufort Sea to South America on its shores and mountains, and am very, very aware of what conditions are like and how quickly they can change. Training, crew resource management, and guidance/ mentoring is something I truly believe in, but it still does not ensure common sense or good judgement with some people.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 21:29
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Training, crew resource management, and guidance/ mentoring is something I truly believe in, but it still does not ensure common sense or good judgement with some people.
Very true Helilog but there is often a sense of duty when employed on Search and Rescue operations that can skew that judgement and lead people to accept higher risks because lives are at stake.

The trouble is, if you have never trained in those conditions, it is easier to be optimistic about your chances of success because you don't realise how hazardous the environment you are about to enter actually is.

As inputshaft highlights - a risk-averse management structure doesn't actually make things safer....far from it because you then allow inadequately trained crews to put themselves at greater risk - unwittingly because they don't really understand the risks - than if they had been exposed to those risks, in a controlled fashion, during training.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 06:13
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I went out to Bodega Head today and looked over the site where the CG Dolphin was stuck. As I guessed, no mud whatsoever. No ruts. There were a lot of faint tire tracks in the grass at what I figure was the landing site, but no sign of any digging there. The only evidence of digging was at the path, where they widened it to make a flat spot to take off. It looks to me like the sole issue was the slope, which is probably 10%. They literally picked the steepest place around to land, while there were flat areas within 100 yds/meters, two gravel parking lots and a flat paved road within 1000'/300 meters. I expect better judgment than this. The boy who fell off the cliff was rescued and transported to the hospital by local firefighters (who deal with these incidents on a regular basis). He's still in a coma.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 07:02
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Obviously the crew had that bit of common sense to pick, on the ground anywhere, rather than try to find somewhere better, and end up another bunch of guys that pushed on and killed themselves. I guess that they got to that, oh $hit situation, saw a landing spot, put it down reassessed, oh well that's us done boys, shut it down we are walking from here.

I was told when training, it's better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, then in the air wishing you were on the ground...
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 09:45
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PrivtPilotRadarTech

I expect better judgment than this (sic)
What is the basis for this expectation? Are you their boss, their examiner or their regulator? Which one?

Slopes can be deceptive at night when you first recce them. But I imagine you know that.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 18:57
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SuperF- they were under no pressure to land. They were there to transport an injured child, they could have hoisted him aboard as he was already in a rescue basket. They failed to complete their mission and disabled their aircraft for 48 hrs, while many better options were readily available- flat ground nearby, two gravel parking lots, a paved road, using the hoist and aborting the landing.

Vie sans frontieres (sic) Their pay comes out of my pocket. This is what they are supposed to be doing, it doesn't seem too much to expect them to choose a safe landing spot when so many were available. In the USA, we call that judgment. I was in the USAF, I would have been in a lot of trouble if I'd disabled my equipment for 48 hrs.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 19:43
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PrivtPilotRadarTech


In Britain we have a feature called the Daily Mail/Mail Online comments page where people with similar views to yourself are most welcome.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 20:30
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Originally Posted by PrivtPilotRadarTech
... they were under no pressure to land.
I guess you must have missed this bit in the article:
Heavy fog forced the helicopter to land on a slope during the rescue
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 21:02
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You f#€k one goat!
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 23:18
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Private Pilot/Radar Tech....flight crew paychecks come out of your very own pocket? Really?

Do tell us how the accounting for that takes place....you get an Invoice each pay period or something?

Now here I sit, thinking what it must have been like that night....near zero vis in Fog in some unloved terrain and the Crew elects to park it right where they are based upon Safety Considerations....and you think they "failed"?

Yeah Right!
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Old 18th Nov 2014, 00:37
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Judgment?

BB, ( and others ), could it be that the crew involved knew that when they made a judgment call like this, they were certain of being backed up by their boss?

The hypothetical leader says to the aviators: Look, you are trained professionals and used to succeeding in flexible circumstances, BUT, if you are uncertain and have second thoughts about a particular operation, at any phase of it, stop it and call me. Tell whoever that I called it off. We will then figure out what to do next, and I can handle the heat from upstairs.

As some very experienced contributors have noted here, realistic training and experience in the mission are necessary factors in advancing the quality of a pilot's judgment, and all I add is that an environment of feeling able to say knock it off without repercussion might further enable that judgment.
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