AAIB Report A109E accident at Vauxhall, and Inquest Verdict
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rotorspeed;
It was you that said "The reality is commercial pressure exists in every part of aviation apart from pleasure flying,"
I am saying that it exists in every part of aviation, including pleasure/private flying.
Silsoe - commercial pressure does exist everywhere, though not where you're perhaps thinking of - with pilots during a job. Pilot salaries, conditions, training, aircraft, equipment etc will all be moaned about by pilots at some point, and are examples of the reality of the constraints of commercial pressure in aviation.
It was you that said "The reality is commercial pressure exists in every part of aviation apart from pleasure flying,"I am saying that it exists in every part of aviation, including pleasure/private flying.
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Steve, you should read the report. It will greatly assist your participation in this debate.
The route, going West, is follow the North bank, not the river.
Eastbound is follow the South bank.
That's to limit the opportunity for a head on.
The route, going West, is follow the North bank, not the river.
Eastbound is follow the South bank.
That's to limit the opportunity for a head on.
2.5.2 Flights on the helicopter routes
Reciprocal traffic on the helicopter routes is deemed separated when westbound traffic routes along the north bank of the River Thames and eastbound traffic routes along the south bank. Rule 5 applies, so any pilot routing along the south bank of the river and passing within 500 ft vertically of the top of the crane (whose elevation the associated NOTAM stated was 770 ft amsl), or the building (elevation 607 ft amsl) once the crane is removed, would be in breach of the ANO.
The building at St George Wharf has therefore increased the local minimum allowable altitude along the south bank to 1,100 ft (based on the building). It has consequently had the effect of preventing two-way traffic on H4 when London City Airport is using Runway 09 (when traffic on H4 is limited to 1,000 ft amsl) or when the cloud base is below 1,200 ft.
Reciprocal traffic on the helicopter routes is deemed separated when westbound traffic routes along the north bank of the River Thames and eastbound traffic routes along the south bank. Rule 5 applies, so any pilot routing along the south bank of the river and passing within 500 ft vertically of the top of the crane (whose elevation the associated NOTAM stated was 770 ft amsl), or the building (elevation 607 ft amsl) once the crane is removed, would be in breach of the ANO.
The building at St George Wharf has therefore increased the local minimum allowable altitude along the south bank to 1,100 ft (based on the building). It has consequently had the effect of preventing two-way traffic on H4 when London City Airport is using Runway 09 (when traffic on H4 is limited to 1,000 ft amsl) or when the cloud base is below 1,200 ft.
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Rotrospeed wrote :
I think we need to accept the huge difference between using a panel mounted device like a Garmin GPS/Radio, and holding an iPhone in your hand.
You are not going to drop the Garmin.
As for commercial pressure in all aviation, that's true. Even weekend warriors are not immune to the cost of going around and spending another chunk of money so they are faced with a desire/hint/suggestion that pressing on is much cheaper/better.
As always, its about making the right decisions, in time.
We all know the right thing to do, it's actually doing it that sets some people apart.
When you start getting multiple points wrong, that's when it becomes hairy.
Texting, briefly, in the quiet cruise is just not a distraction risk and focus on it should indeed be ditched.
You are not going to drop the Garmin.
As for commercial pressure in all aviation, that's true. Even weekend warriors are not immune to the cost of going around and spending another chunk of money so they are faced with a desire/hint/suggestion that pressing on is much cheaper/better.
As always, its about making the right decisions, in time.
We all know the right thing to do, it's actually doing it that sets some people apart.
When you start getting multiple points wrong, that's when it becomes hairy.
Avoid imitations
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Clarify as you wish.
He was in Cloud.
It was Controlled Airspace was it not?
You are exactly correct there was no Instrument Approach.
He was no longer VMC, VFR, or SVFR.
He had obtained a VFR/SVFR Clearance.
He was not complying with the Requirements of either of those Clearances.
In the UK, can you fly IMC in Controlled Airspace without a IFR Clearance?
He was in Cloud.
It was Controlled Airspace was it not?
You are exactly correct there was no Instrument Approach.
He was no longer VMC, VFR, or SVFR.
He had obtained a VFR/SVFR Clearance.
He was not complying with the Requirements of either of those Clearances.
In the UK, can you fly IMC in Controlled Airspace without a IFR Clearance?
The answer to your question is obviously a resounding NO, nor was I attempting to intimate otherwise.
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terminus mos
What a curious response.
Fine. That's your opinion, but it's not what you said.
When the texts were first mentioned in the original thread a lot of people assumed the pilot was texting while he was scud-running and some people even assumed he was texting when he hit the crane. It's clear from the report that he wasn't.
He shouldn't have been scud-running at all but if the guy is gonna be criticized then let him be criticized for what he did not what he didn't.
I am not getting into a pissing contest with you,
texting while flying in command of a single pilot aircraft at any time or in any weather is worthy of a Darwin award.
When the texts were first mentioned in the original thread a lot of people assumed the pilot was texting while he was scud-running and some people even assumed he was texting when he hit the crane. It's clear from the report that he wasn't.
He shouldn't have been scud-running at all but if the guy is gonna be criticized then let him be criticized for what he did not what he didn't.
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Bronx,
He shouldn't have been scud-running at all but if the guy is gonna be criticized then let him be criticized for what he did not what he didn't.
He is being criticized for texting.Period.It was obviously a high workload situation and he shouldn't have been doing that.Before or after or during scud running.
I suppose you belong to the texting,PS/X Box generation that doesn't seem to understand the risks and who believes in the myth of multitasking.
Alt3.
He shouldn't have been scud-running at all but if the guy is gonna be criticized then let him be criticized for what he did not what he didn't.
He is being criticized for texting.Period.It was obviously a high workload situation and he shouldn't have been doing that.Before or after or during scud running.
I suppose you belong to the texting,PS/X Box generation that doesn't seem to understand the risks and who believes in the myth of multitasking.
Alt3.
Avoid imitations
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The answer only 15? I counted many more.There were only two figures not wearing white. One of the people passing the basketballs and the gorilla.
Or are we only supposed to count those wearing white shirts?
Or are we only supposed to count those wearing white shirts?
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Alt3
I don't call VMC on top a high workload situation.
He had been given clearance back to base and was on his way there until he got the Battersea is open message.
You suppose far too much.
BTW, I don't but it gave my grandkids a good laugh.
The myth of multitasking?
Helicopter pilots have been multitasking since before they invented the word.
Fly yes, operate no.
Piltdown Man
Nobody.
No fly = no pay.
I don't call VMC on top a high workload situation.
He had been given clearance back to base and was on his way there until he got the Battersea is open message.
I suppose you belong to the texting,PS/X Box generation that doesn't seem to understand the risks and who believes in the myth of multitasking.
BTW, I don't but it gave my grandkids a good laugh.
The myth of multitasking?
Helicopter pilots have been multitasking since before they invented the word.
Fly yes, operate no.
Piltdown Man
I'm also no wiser in understanding how charter contracts work when a job can not be executed, either because of poor weather or technical malfunctions. Who gets paid what etc.
No fly = no pay.
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0755 Client to Pilot: Battersea is open
0755 Pilot to Operator: Can’t get in Elstree hdg back assume clear still
0755 Operator to Pilot: Yes it’s fine still here. (This text was not read.)
The last read and sent text messages were approximately four minutes before the collision with the crane:
At 0756, following the message from the client telling him Battersea was open, the pilot asked ATC to confirm.
It was only after ATC confirmed that it was, that he subsequently descended - while waiting to be cleared to Battersea.
0755 Pilot to Operator: Can’t get in Elstree hdg back assume clear still
0755 Operator to Pilot: Yes it’s fine still here. (This text was not read.)
The last read and sent text messages were approximately four minutes before the collision with the crane:
At 0756, following the message from the client telling him Battersea was open, the pilot asked ATC to confirm.
It was only after ATC confirmed that it was, that he subsequently descended - while waiting to be cleared to Battersea.
If we can, then I would suggest that in that case, Texting caused him to divert from his best decision of all that Day, and thus Texting would have been the Trigger that got pulled on the Gun.
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alouette3
Who?
People have expressed different opinions about texting but no-one has tried to defend what the pilot did.
If we keep focusing only upon what the pilot did and don't bother to explore the factors that led, or might have led, him to do it we will have another one of these in short order.
Who's blaming ATC?
The AAIB are concerned about the proliferation of very tall cranes along the river. Are they wrong?
If you think there's no culture problem you are either very much mistaken or it's very different in your part of the world.
We all know what the pilot did, he pushed his luck/tempted fate in poor visibility, but as Piltdown Man and others have said in different ways 'We need to know why, not just what.'
TC
He is listening. He just doesn't agree with you.
With genuine respect for your very long experience as both a Navy and ASU pilot, saying 'Don't be over confident', 'Learn from this' etc, whilst obviously sound advice, is too simplistic. People have been saying 'Learn from this' for years and yet these accidents still happen.
Is it not even worth considering whether there are other factors (in addition to over confidence/a belief that it won't happen to them) that lead pilots to do it?
And, if there are, trying to remove or reduce the effect of those factors?
H.
I am amazed at the tiptoeing going on around here.With the exception of TC,everybody here seems to want to give the pilot a get -out- of -jail -free card.
People have expressed different opinions about texting but no-one has tried to defend what the pilot did.
if we keep trying to blame ATC,Cranes,Culture and what have you,we will have another one of these in short order.
Who's blaming ATC?
The AAIB are concerned about the proliferation of very tall cranes along the river. Are they wrong?
If you think there's no culture problem you are either very much mistaken or it's very different in your part of the world.
We all know what the pilot did, he pushed his luck/tempted fate in poor visibility, but as Piltdown Man and others have said in different ways 'We need to know why, not just what.'
TC
PM: You are not listening are you. Try not to look for something that is not there.
With genuine respect for your very long experience as both a Navy and ASU pilot, saying 'Don't be over confident', 'Learn from this' etc, whilst obviously sound advice, is too simplistic. People have been saying 'Learn from this' for years and yet these accidents still happen.
Is it not even worth considering whether there are other factors (in addition to over confidence/a belief that it won't happen to them) that lead pilots to do it?
And, if there are, trying to remove or reduce the effect of those factors?
H.
Heliport: Sometimes one can genuinely not see the wood etc.................
Perhaps you haven't been in situations like this often enough to realise nearly ALL commercial pilots push the limits for absolutely no reason at all other than they have seen it, done it, been there so many times, so one more 'time' shouldn't make a difference. He was not (repeat) under any time, financial pressure to get to his destination. He had been told by the customer to forget it. He wasn't lost, in fact he was fiddling with his damn phone minutes before so he was obviously "comfortable" with his SA.
And that was the problem...he was: COMPLACENT.
Intermittent VMC, cloud hpping/dodging ....call it what you like.
He carried on as if it was a minor blip on his radar.
Sometimes HELIPORT you have to debrief your fellow pilots and tell it as it is.
This is as straight forward a case of unprofessional flying as one could get. Don't look for anything else here, other than CRM....because it was sorely missing.
Please don't wrap this in various layers of aviation gobbledy gook to get others to think "society is to blame". They aren't, the environment wasn't, ATC weren't. HE WAS. K.I.S.S.
Perhaps you haven't been in situations like this often enough to realise nearly ALL commercial pilots push the limits for absolutely no reason at all other than they have seen it, done it, been there so many times, so one more 'time' shouldn't make a difference. He was not (repeat) under any time, financial pressure to get to his destination. He had been told by the customer to forget it. He wasn't lost, in fact he was fiddling with his damn phone minutes before so he was obviously "comfortable" with his SA.
And that was the problem...he was: COMPLACENT.
Intermittent VMC, cloud hpping/dodging ....call it what you like.
He carried on as if it was a minor blip on his radar.
Sometimes HELIPORT you have to debrief your fellow pilots and tell it as it is.
This is as straight forward a case of unprofessional flying as one could get. Don't look for anything else here, other than CRM....because it was sorely missing.
Please don't wrap this in various layers of aviation gobbledy gook to get others to think "society is to blame". They aren't, the environment wasn't, ATC weren't. HE WAS. K.I.S.S.
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Bronx,
I don't call VMC on top a high workload situation.
Single pilot, trying to make it to a heliport,possibly in and out of clouds ,over a large metropolitan city riddled with cranes,changing decisions based on client input,talking to ATC.If that is not a high workload situation I don't know what is.
The myth of multitasking?
Helicopter pilots have been multitasking since before they invented the word.
Okay so I got your age wrong.However, you do need to read a few more books on human factors and the like before you come out here and make a statement like that. Maybe then you can explain better to your grand kids why it is not safe to text and drive or even talk on the cell phone while doing so.
I know why he did the things he did.But, you go ahead and try and find someone else to blame.
Alt3.
I don't call VMC on top a high workload situation.
Single pilot, trying to make it to a heliport,possibly in and out of clouds ,over a large metropolitan city riddled with cranes,changing decisions based on client input,talking to ATC.If that is not a high workload situation I don't know what is.
The myth of multitasking?
Helicopter pilots have been multitasking since before they invented the word.
Okay so I got your age wrong.However, you do need to read a few more books on human factors and the like before you come out here and make a statement like that. Maybe then you can explain better to your grand kids why it is not safe to text and drive or even talk on the cell phone while doing so.
I know why he did the things he did.But, you go ahead and try and find someone else to blame.
Alt3.
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Heliport,
Who?
People have expressed different opinions about texting but no-one has tried to defend what the pilot did.
If you haven't figured that out,you need to go back and read this thread from the beginning.
If you think there's no culture problem you are either very much mistaken or it's very different in your part of the world.
Things are no different in my part of the world.Heaven knows we have our own unique set of cultural issues to deal with.But,when we as a a group try to blame culture for a purely poor CRM and Hazardous Attitudes related accident,just because the pilot was well liked , had 10K hours and was British, we are equally to blame. An experienced pilot commits a rookie mistake and so it is culture.Is that what you want the next generation of pilots to get from this?
I certainly hope not.
Alt3.
Who?
People have expressed different opinions about texting but no-one has tried to defend what the pilot did.
If you haven't figured that out,you need to go back and read this thread from the beginning.
If you think there's no culture problem you are either very much mistaken or it's very different in your part of the world.
Things are no different in my part of the world.Heaven knows we have our own unique set of cultural issues to deal with.But,when we as a a group try to blame culture for a purely poor CRM and Hazardous Attitudes related accident,just because the pilot was well liked , had 10K hours and was British, we are equally to blame. An experienced pilot commits a rookie mistake and so it is culture.Is that what you want the next generation of pilots to get from this?
I certainly hope not.
Alt3.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
This multi tasking malarky that is being thrown around is nothing but a myth. We can do many things at the same time, but we simply cannot multitask to the extent that we believe the term 'multitasking' means, simple.
If we look at this incident in simple chunks, cheese slices if you will, it becomes clearer bit by bit. For starters, as Bob says, it's pretty clear that if the mobile phone texting wasn't going on, Pete would have continued back to Redhill.
Future CRM courses will be pulling this to bits and picking every single one of the multiple times where this incident could have been prevented. Just to make it clear, not everyone of them directly involves Pete.
Yes we can learn from this and learn a lot, however not until people pull their heads out of the sand and realise that CRM involves single piloted aircraft as much as multi piloted aircraft, will we fully appreciate the lessons we are presented with and can learn from. Until then, these mistakes will be repeated.
The days of the term 'Single Pilot CRM' being greeted with contempt, must be relegated to the dim and distant past.
Doesn't this all sound oh so familiar?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/458...ml#post7196857
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/446...ml#post6318274
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/416...ml#post5721442
If we look at this incident in simple chunks, cheese slices if you will, it becomes clearer bit by bit. For starters, as Bob says, it's pretty clear that if the mobile phone texting wasn't going on, Pete would have continued back to Redhill.
Future CRM courses will be pulling this to bits and picking every single one of the multiple times where this incident could have been prevented. Just to make it clear, not everyone of them directly involves Pete.
Yes we can learn from this and learn a lot, however not until people pull their heads out of the sand and realise that CRM involves single piloted aircraft as much as multi piloted aircraft, will we fully appreciate the lessons we are presented with and can learn from. Until then, these mistakes will be repeated.
The days of the term 'Single Pilot CRM' being greeted with contempt, must be relegated to the dim and distant past.
Doesn't this all sound oh so familiar?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/458...ml#post7196857
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/446...ml#post6318274
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/416...ml#post5721442
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So if I understand TC correctly, Peter Barnes was the proverbial "rotten apple". He broke the rules and was complacent and as a result, crashed and died. Obviously he'll never make that mistake again and aviation will be safer without him. Or will it?
The answer is it won't be, because nothing will have been done to prevent others from doing the same. Will more rules and greater punishments change anything? I doubt it. The AAIB described what happened where and it appeared Peter decided to aviate, navigate and communicate all at the same time - but we still don't know why. How many times since this incident have helicopters flown along H4 in marginal conditions? I don't have any numbers, but I'll wager it was more than one. How about using pilots with more experience? So that will be pilots with more than 10,000 hrs. Or will another gadget in the aircraft help? Aren't there enough already? Or is it the environment or system in which they operate at fault?
I'll tell you for free, beating people with a safety stick does little to change the future. Or do we print a notice on the windshield stating "WARNING - Do not be complacent"?
The solution I'm suggesting is that we start by understand the reasons why because it is clear that the rule makers have failed us. You don't think so? Well when you next get in your car, see how many illegal acts are committed around you. You can even include yourself if you like. There'll be speeders, under-takers. mobile phone users, non-seatbelt users, in-insured drivers etc. And each and every one of these acts is illegal, yet the drivers still offend.
So yes TC, Heliport is right, I do listen but don't agree with you. The only way we can lift our game is to work with people and not punish them. Creating and enforcing rules, regulations and by-laws gave improvements in the past, but we have moved on. Let's keep progressing and try not to revert back to our savage past
PM
The answer is it won't be, because nothing will have been done to prevent others from doing the same. Will more rules and greater punishments change anything? I doubt it. The AAIB described what happened where and it appeared Peter decided to aviate, navigate and communicate all at the same time - but we still don't know why. How many times since this incident have helicopters flown along H4 in marginal conditions? I don't have any numbers, but I'll wager it was more than one. How about using pilots with more experience? So that will be pilots with more than 10,000 hrs. Or will another gadget in the aircraft help? Aren't there enough already? Or is it the environment or system in which they operate at fault?
I'll tell you for free, beating people with a safety stick does little to change the future. Or do we print a notice on the windshield stating "WARNING - Do not be complacent"?
The solution I'm suggesting is that we start by understand the reasons why because it is clear that the rule makers have failed us. You don't think so? Well when you next get in your car, see how many illegal acts are committed around you. You can even include yourself if you like. There'll be speeders, under-takers. mobile phone users, non-seatbelt users, in-insured drivers etc. And each and every one of these acts is illegal, yet the drivers still offend.
So yes TC, Heliport is right, I do listen but don't agree with you. The only way we can lift our game is to work with people and not punish them. Creating and enforcing rules, regulations and by-laws gave improvements in the past, but we have moved on. Let's keep progressing and try not to revert back to our savage past
PM
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PM,
The solution I'm suggesting is that we start by understand the reasons why because it is clear that the rule makers have failed us.
What is there to understand? The rules exist and were broken.Plain and simple. No amount of rule making will take away client pressure, economic pressure or self induced pressure.This is especially true in a world of single pilots where there is no one looking over your shoulder and the only one making the decisions is the one least qualified to assess his or her own ability--- the pilot.
No one has failed us. We are our own worst enemy and the only solution is to understand that a 10K pilot was suckered into a situation that killed him. Until we have gadgets that can record a man's final thoughts, we will never know what Peter or any other pilot was thinking in the final moments.We can only surmise ,given the evidence so far, that what he might have been thinking is "I can do this", "It only happens to others" "Done this before can do it again" "Must get the job done" or thoughts along those lines.
Alt3.
The solution I'm suggesting is that we start by understand the reasons why because it is clear that the rule makers have failed us.
What is there to understand? The rules exist and were broken.Plain and simple. No amount of rule making will take away client pressure, economic pressure or self induced pressure.This is especially true in a world of single pilots where there is no one looking over your shoulder and the only one making the decisions is the one least qualified to assess his or her own ability--- the pilot.
No one has failed us. We are our own worst enemy and the only solution is to understand that a 10K pilot was suckered into a situation that killed him. Until we have gadgets that can record a man's final thoughts, we will never know what Peter or any other pilot was thinking in the final moments.We can only surmise ,given the evidence so far, that what he might have been thinking is "I can do this", "It only happens to others" "Done this before can do it again" "Must get the job done" or thoughts along those lines.
Alt3.