EC155
Musket,
How do you load baggage and pax simultaneously on the 155...does not the cabin door slide back over the swinging baggage door?
Do you still have the restriction on opening the crew doors with the rotors turning at less than full chat?
Seems to me we used Cat A performance on the 212's although the profiles had been tinkered with to allow for operation from the pumpstations so long as we used the canals and rivers for rejected takeoffs. As you can relate...some of the reject areas were quite small and usually very rough....sometimes covered in Bananna Palms.
I never could see how "ditching" could be considered a "safe landing area".....anyone care to explain that to me? I was always led to understand the reject area had to be clear of obstacles, smooth, and firm enough to support the aircraft. I freely submit any sort of water does not meet that critieria.
Why would you operate the 155 Cat A only...and not the 212 fleet....has there been a change in the safety culture at Shell? When the 212 and the 155 were working side by side....was that the case....Cat A for the 155 and non-Cat A for the 212?
How do you load baggage and pax simultaneously on the 155...does not the cabin door slide back over the swinging baggage door?
Do you still have the restriction on opening the crew doors with the rotors turning at less than full chat?
Seems to me we used Cat A performance on the 212's although the profiles had been tinkered with to allow for operation from the pumpstations so long as we used the canals and rivers for rejected takeoffs. As you can relate...some of the reject areas were quite small and usually very rough....sometimes covered in Bananna Palms.
I never could see how "ditching" could be considered a "safe landing area".....anyone care to explain that to me? I was always led to understand the reject area had to be clear of obstacles, smooth, and firm enough to support the aircraft. I freely submit any sort of water does not meet that critieria.
Why would you operate the 155 Cat A only...and not the 212 fleet....has there been a change in the safety culture at Shell? When the 212 and the 155 were working side by side....was that the case....Cat A for the 155 and non-Cat A for the 212?
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Musket 33,
Surely the only requirement for 155 to operate Cat A is Shell, no? I thought Bell 212 was operated Cat A as well, just it has a shorter reject distance and having skids, can be operated off grass in rainy season Cat A (unlike 155, which rolls over when the wheels dig in to the mud.
Does the 155 operate Cat A from all the flow stations and offshore as well? If it's operating Cat A offshore how many passengers can it lift using helipad profile?
They do have performance charts to operate Cat B for 155. Your Operations Manual must specify what the DP is for Cat B or Class 2 operations (normally either Vtoss or Vy after which the national legislation will normally specify you must have Cat A performance. Normally the Cat A will be limited by something like the single engined performance en-route (normally something like...... must be able to maintain level flight on one engine at Vy at SE max continuous power). So all you have to do is go to the single engine performance graphs and work it out. If you fly 155 and 212, just go to the graphs and compare for yourself.
Surely the only requirement for 155 to operate Cat A is Shell, no? I thought Bell 212 was operated Cat A as well, just it has a shorter reject distance and having skids, can be operated off grass in rainy season Cat A (unlike 155, which rolls over when the wheels dig in to the mud.
Does the 155 operate Cat A from all the flow stations and offshore as well? If it's operating Cat A offshore how many passengers can it lift using helipad profile?
They do have performance charts to operate Cat B for 155. Your Operations Manual must specify what the DP is for Cat B or Class 2 operations (normally either Vtoss or Vy after which the national legislation will normally specify you must have Cat A performance. Normally the Cat A will be limited by something like the single engined performance en-route (normally something like...... must be able to maintain level flight on one engine at Vy at SE max continuous power). So all you have to do is go to the single engine performance graphs and work it out. If you fly 155 and 212, just go to the graphs and compare for yourself.
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SASless
Wow! Opened a can of worms here, so first things first.
A "Nigerian Cat A" is not the Cat A Bell helicopters describes in the approved Aircraft Operators Manual. As you'll notice the max takeoff weight is 10,200 lbs and goes down from there. I know for a fact your well aware of the little fiddle that was carried on for years to make the "Nigerian Cat A" acceptable. Perhaps you should talk to a Capt. McDonald who is no longer flying. He was one of the people who helped arrive at a compromise to develope the "Nigerian Cat A"
Yarba
Yes your right any wheeled aircraft will sink into the mud faster than a skid aircraft. Yes, your also right the B212 had a shorter reject distance than the EC155B. However, the B212 operated with a much lower max takeoff weight to met the Bell approve Cat A profiles.
As for Cat A and Cat B I understood that Class 1 and Class 2 refered to the type of reject area you were rejecting to. This would determine the amount of damage to passengers and aircraft if a reject were required. I understand these definitions come from the current JAR ops. Must admit I\'m not really up on the EU regulations so any specific reference would be greatly appreciated.
SASless
Your absolutely right if the passenger door is open it blocks the baggage door on that side of the aircraft. However, you only need to open one passenger door at a time. This leaves the other side baggage door free to be opened and use. Unlike the B212 which only has one baggage area door.
SASless and Yarba
Sorry, I\'m a little rusty on the 212, not having flown it for a few years. Looking under CAA approved supplements BHT-212-FMS-CAA-7 Section 1A-6-A Maximum GW is 10,000 pounds.
Wow! Opened a can of worms here, so first things first.
A "Nigerian Cat A" is not the Cat A Bell helicopters describes in the approved Aircraft Operators Manual. As you'll notice the max takeoff weight is 10,200 lbs and goes down from there. I know for a fact your well aware of the little fiddle that was carried on for years to make the "Nigerian Cat A" acceptable. Perhaps you should talk to a Capt. McDonald who is no longer flying. He was one of the people who helped arrive at a compromise to develope the "Nigerian Cat A"
Yarba
Yes your right any wheeled aircraft will sink into the mud faster than a skid aircraft. Yes, your also right the B212 had a shorter reject distance than the EC155B. However, the B212 operated with a much lower max takeoff weight to met the Bell approve Cat A profiles.
As for Cat A and Cat B I understood that Class 1 and Class 2 refered to the type of reject area you were rejecting to. This would determine the amount of damage to passengers and aircraft if a reject were required. I understand these definitions come from the current JAR ops. Must admit I\'m not really up on the EU regulations so any specific reference would be greatly appreciated.
SASless
Your absolutely right if the passenger door is open it blocks the baggage door on that side of the aircraft. However, you only need to open one passenger door at a time. This leaves the other side baggage door free to be opened and use. Unlike the B212 which only has one baggage area door.
SASless and Yarba
Sorry, I\'m a little rusty on the 212, not having flown it for a few years. Looking under CAA approved supplements BHT-212-FMS-CAA-7 Section 1A-6-A Maximum GW is 10,000 pounds.
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Steve -
The 76B, C, C+, C++ and D are all 11.7klbs MGTOW per Sikorsky's data and press releases.
Added power just gives better high hot and Cat-A performance.
The 76C++ will be fitted with an inlet barrier filter (imagine a huge K&N filter and you'll be right on) which will supposedly significantly lower the mean time between unscheduled removals.
Hoss
The 76B, C, C+, C++ and D are all 11.7klbs MGTOW per Sikorsky's data and press releases.
Added power just gives better high hot and Cat-A performance.
The 76C++ will be fitted with an inlet barrier filter (imagine a huge K&N filter and you'll be right on) which will supposedly significantly lower the mean time between unscheduled removals.
Hoss
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Hi Musket,
I think you'll find that in reality there's no such thing as Nigerian Cat A. Cat A is based on ICAO Class 1 performance, which basically says that at any time after you start moving with passenegrs on board you can either reject safely, with no damage to anyting, or continue to fly, divert to a safe place to land and do so with no damage to anything. Cat B is basically ICAO Class 2 performance. Everything in Class 1 applies, except it is accepted that there is an acceptable degree of risk during the take off part of flight where, until you reach your defined 'decision point' (refer to my previous post), you may not be able to land safely. However, even if you can't land without damaging your helicopter you can't damage other people, either inside or outside the helicopter. This would mean that you could take off in your 155 on grass in the rainy season, but only class 2 and you have to be sure that when the aircraft digs in to the mud your passengers aren't damaged!
The best references are ICAO performance standards, and NCAR ops for Nigeria.
Hope that helps you.
I think you'll find that in reality there's no such thing as Nigerian Cat A. Cat A is based on ICAO Class 1 performance, which basically says that at any time after you start moving with passenegrs on board you can either reject safely, with no damage to anyting, or continue to fly, divert to a safe place to land and do so with no damage to anything. Cat B is basically ICAO Class 2 performance. Everything in Class 1 applies, except it is accepted that there is an acceptable degree of risk during the take off part of flight where, until you reach your defined 'decision point' (refer to my previous post), you may not be able to land safely. However, even if you can't land without damaging your helicopter you can't damage other people, either inside or outside the helicopter. This would mean that you could take off in your 155 on grass in the rainy season, but only class 2 and you have to be sure that when the aircraft digs in to the mud your passengers aren't damaged!
The best references are ICAO performance standards, and NCAR ops for Nigeria.
Hope that helps you.
Yarba....having more than a little bit of fondness for old Musket 33 there......I begin to wonder if he considers the skies of SE Asia a bit friendlier than Nigerian skies currently.
Right about now.....he will probably be sitting next to 212man as they study the bottoms of thier Gulder bottles wondering why they bother trying to educate the unwilling about the 155.
I am sure they are chuffed to be flogging around the claggy airspace of the delta region....happily twiddling knobs and punching buttons....getting confused over which screen is active....which nav mode is engaged....crosswords on their kneeboards....sweat dripping off their noses while their once crisply starched now sweat soaked white shirts portray their hairy chests for all to see. But.....as good as it is to have the toys....they fail to realize just how good the old 212 was....with the wonderful SFENA Stab system....12 different cockpit layouts in nine aircraft....and 37,000 hours on the airframe.
Some questions arose while reading 33's (ah memories of some real beer in that number) reponses. I do not recall a 10,200 number...I do remember a 11,200 number with a usual weight of about 10,800 being the usual weight.
The 212 had a well seat for two that converted to a baggage compartment if the tailboom would not hold all the trash...thus you had some flexibility in that regard. Both cabin doors slide back...thus the Gran Prix Nigerian pax loading system works fine. We had the Nigerian Air Quartermaster to control the mob in back...and do all the paperwork....leaving pilots to do the crossword and make radio calls....read checklists....brief...re-brief...de-brief...and chat with Martha.
I used to be able to rattle off all the briefs for the various profiles...but they got all complicated last time I was there....never could keep it straight whether it was Cat A, Group B, Class 1.....whatever and merely reverted to The Small One's....favorite call of "We're outta here!"
Basic premise of this response...Musket 33 is a dear chap...he is trying to defend the 155...it was a gallant try....he caught a lot of spears for 212man....beers for 33 on 212man's account are in order.
Am I forgiven, 33?
Right about now.....he will probably be sitting next to 212man as they study the bottoms of thier Gulder bottles wondering why they bother trying to educate the unwilling about the 155.
I am sure they are chuffed to be flogging around the claggy airspace of the delta region....happily twiddling knobs and punching buttons....getting confused over which screen is active....which nav mode is engaged....crosswords on their kneeboards....sweat dripping off their noses while their once crisply starched now sweat soaked white shirts portray their hairy chests for all to see. But.....as good as it is to have the toys....they fail to realize just how good the old 212 was....with the wonderful SFENA Stab system....12 different cockpit layouts in nine aircraft....and 37,000 hours on the airframe.
Some questions arose while reading 33's (ah memories of some real beer in that number) reponses. I do not recall a 10,200 number...I do remember a 11,200 number with a usual weight of about 10,800 being the usual weight.
The 212 had a well seat for two that converted to a baggage compartment if the tailboom would not hold all the trash...thus you had some flexibility in that regard. Both cabin doors slide back...thus the Gran Prix Nigerian pax loading system works fine. We had the Nigerian Air Quartermaster to control the mob in back...and do all the paperwork....leaving pilots to do the crossword and make radio calls....read checklists....brief...re-brief...de-brief...and chat with Martha.
I used to be able to rattle off all the briefs for the various profiles...but they got all complicated last time I was there....never could keep it straight whether it was Cat A, Group B, Class 1.....whatever and merely reverted to The Small One's....favorite call of "We're outta here!"
Basic premise of this response...Musket 33 is a dear chap...he is trying to defend the 155...it was a gallant try....he caught a lot of spears for 212man....beers for 33 on 212man's account are in order.
Am I forgiven, 33?
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SASless and Yarba
The B212 is a good old bird. Never did say it wasn't. The EC155 is also a good aircraft but a much different technic is required to manage it. It is not the perfect CAT A helicopter. There isn't any that I am aware of at the present or near future. I've never been in a B212 that could climb at 800 fpm, indicating 110 kts thru 3000 feet with 10 pacs and baggage. However, I would gladly trade some of this performance for an airconditioner or a window you could open.
SASless next time you plan on passing thru Las Vegas drop me an e-mail and I will buy the first beer. Will buy all the beers if you can show me you have a check-ride the next morning.
The B212 is a good old bird. Never did say it wasn't. The EC155 is also a good aircraft but a much different technic is required to manage it. It is not the perfect CAT A helicopter. There isn't any that I am aware of at the present or near future. I've never been in a B212 that could climb at 800 fpm, indicating 110 kts thru 3000 feet with 10 pacs and baggage. However, I would gladly trade some of this performance for an airconditioner or a window you could open.
SASless next time you plan on passing thru Las Vegas drop me an e-mail and I will buy the first beer. Will buy all the beers if you can show me you have a check-ride the next morning.
SASless,
it all boils down to the old adage; you can't have your cake and eat it.
You want fast? Have fast but expect penalties at low speed. You want slow? Have slow but don't expect to get a very high Vne. You want good economy? have it but don't expect good OEI performance. You want good OEI performance? Have it but don't expect good fuel economy, and so it goes on.
I loved flying the 212 but I wouldn't swap the 155 now. Granted, it's not perfect, but no helicopter is.
If you read a bit more into what is and is not allowable, you will find water rejects are perfectly legal when operating to PC2 standards. In reality it was always going to be a likely outcome with the 212, too. You and I may not desire it; we'd all like to step out of our a/c on a tarmac strip rather than clamber out into a dinghy, but it IS legal.
PS I don't like Gulder and I don't have a hairy chest!
it all boils down to the old adage; you can't have your cake and eat it.
You want fast? Have fast but expect penalties at low speed. You want slow? Have slow but don't expect to get a very high Vne. You want good economy? have it but don't expect good OEI performance. You want good OEI performance? Have it but don't expect good fuel economy, and so it goes on.
I loved flying the 212 but I wouldn't swap the 155 now. Granted, it's not perfect, but no helicopter is.
If you read a bit more into what is and is not allowable, you will find water rejects are perfectly legal when operating to PC2 standards. In reality it was always going to be a likely outcome with the 212, too. You and I may not desire it; we'd all like to step out of our a/c on a tarmac strip rather than clamber out into a dinghy, but it IS legal.
PS I don't like Gulder and I don't have a hairy chest!
PC2 standards....sounds like the same logic that allows a Jetranger to be over the Gulf of Mexico in winter with a 40 knot wind blowing and the water temperature down around 50 degrees F......sea rolling about Sea State 4-5 or higher.....and pop-out floats that are certified to mill pond standard or slightly more. No exposure suits and the Coastguard running around the Port of New Orleans hunting terrs.
It may be legal.....but is it safe enough a standard when carrying SLF?
But that is a topic for another argument.
It may be legal.....but is it safe enough a standard when carrying SLF?
But that is a topic for another argument.
You're right; another topic. The same one where advocating Cat A standards tends to generate flack!
Any 155 pilots fancy a change?
Rumour is this guy has 2 on order with a possible third....
http://flightinternational.com/Jobs/...ter+Pilot.html
http://flightinternational.com/Jobs/...ter+Pilot.html
Requires the FAA License 212man....maybe our old friend can be convinced to come forth again out of Lost Wages and ply his trade once again. How could anyone give up Nigeria for a posh job on some nice yacht.....there ain't no Bush Bar to retire too and contemplate life.
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EC155
Hi Guys,
I keep hearing about "Lots" of EC155's working the offshore patch around the globe however I can only think of a few locations -
Nigeria (5 - 6)
Vietnam (2 - 3)
China (2)
Where are the rest ???
What about their reliability and performance - again hear of frequent engine changes especially during the early stages of operations in Nigeria BUT does anyone know the real facts on that or any other maint issues?
Curious to hear from those amongst you who have flown the 155 and the S76 and how they compare side by side.
I keep hearing about "Lots" of EC155's working the offshore patch around the globe however I can only think of a few locations -
Nigeria (5 - 6)
Vietnam (2 - 3)
China (2)
Where are the rest ???
What about their reliability and performance - again hear of frequent engine changes especially during the early stages of operations in Nigeria BUT does anyone know the real facts on that or any other maint issues?
Curious to hear from those amongst you who have flown the 155 and the S76 and how they compare side by side.
Maybe one for ERA if the gear up landing rumour is correct.