AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk
Sad as this crash is, I feel not more than a little annoyed that some are suggesting yet more regulation within the industry. With respect to weather minima, the rules are already in place.
Whilst weather is likely to be a significant factor in this crash, it hasn't yet been proven to be the case.
I'm surprised only one person seems to have picked up on the 'undamaged' tail rotor. It looks to me like the main rotor was probably under power at the time of impact and although the impact appears to be nose first, the tail rotor seems to have touched the ground and I'm surprised it appears to be unscathed. It's not as though the AW139 doesn't have a history of T/R problems.
Please, no more calls for more regulation - let's stick to, and if necessary, enforce the rules that are already in place.
JJ
Whilst weather is likely to be a significant factor in this crash, it hasn't yet been proven to be the case.
I'm surprised only one person seems to have picked up on the 'undamaged' tail rotor. It looks to me like the main rotor was probably under power at the time of impact and although the impact appears to be nose first, the tail rotor seems to have touched the ground and I'm surprised it appears to be unscathed. It's not as though the AW139 doesn't have a history of T/R problems.
Please, no more calls for more regulation - let's stick to, and if necessary, enforce the rules that are already in place.
JJ
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Cabby;
That site was lit, and I'm not aware of anyone daft enough to use un-lit sites these days.
I heard the Vine show, one bloke claimed to be an aviation analyst, he was ex-Beccles cabin crew and rattled on about instrument lag and all sorts of stuff he got from books, but the real treasure was Tommy Abdy-Collins, long retired, who decided to shoot his stupid mouth off about how pro helicopter pilots fly to Cheltenham for the festival under power lines to avoid the weather. He then regaled the listeners with stories of what cowboys we all are. WELL DONE TOMMY! YOU UTTER C***. Next time you decide to traduce my colleagues and me like this I'm going to stamp on your face you ignorant t***.
SND
That site was lit, and I'm not aware of anyone daft enough to use un-lit sites these days.
I heard the Vine show, one bloke claimed to be an aviation analyst, he was ex-Beccles cabin crew and rattled on about instrument lag and all sorts of stuff he got from books, but the real treasure was Tommy Abdy-Collins, long retired, who decided to shoot his stupid mouth off about how pro helicopter pilots fly to Cheltenham for the festival under power lines to avoid the weather. He then regaled the listeners with stories of what cowboys we all are. WELL DONE TOMMY! YOU UTTER C***. Next time you decide to traduce my colleagues and me like this I'm going to stamp on your face you ignorant t***.
SND
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Vine
I heard that piece too - what a complete oxygen thief! Made me embarrassed to be ex-AAC. One of the local press websites describes a large tree with the top 25ft newly broken off near by. Whatever the cause, two fewer fellow aviators are mourned by us all. There but for the grace...
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JJ, well said.
I can no longer bear to listen to Jeremy Vine's programme. His whining, sensation seeking, apologist claptrap and the banshee wailing of his extremist, often Harpie like phone in contributors drives me to distraction. The programme has become the radio equivalent of the worst tabloid newspapers. Bring back Jimmy Young!
I can no longer bear to listen to Jeremy Vine's programme. His whining, sensation seeking, apologist claptrap and the banshee wailing of his extremist, often Harpie like phone in contributors drives me to distraction. The programme has become the radio equivalent of the worst tabloid newspapers. Bring back Jimmy Young!
For a Panorama presenter the bloke seems incredibly thick.I remember him discussing someone with an IQ of 160 "Is that high,doesn't IQ go up to 1000?"
He played the record Abraham,Martin and John. "Oh someone just told me that's about Martin Luther King,I never knew that"
He played the record Abraham,Martin and John. "Oh someone just told me that's about Martin Luther King,I never knew that"
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Jellycopter
I think it's a bit of a stretch to start assuming TR problems from the photograph. The nose-down impact and rapid rotor deceleration that would produce that sort of destruction, would probably result in a pretty low TR rpm by the time it, the TR, touched (admittedly all measured in less than seconds)
Time will tell.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to start assuming TR problems from the photograph. The nose-down impact and rapid rotor deceleration that would produce that sort of destruction, would probably result in a pretty low TR rpm by the time it, the TR, touched (admittedly all measured in less than seconds)
Time will tell.
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Anyone expecting to gain valuable knowledge of private helicopter operations from the Jeremy Vine show will get what they deserve. If you've done this sort of work, you'll know the pressures these 2 guys were under, you'll know that the CAA can legislate till the cows come home, but we would still try to interpret those rules to get the job done. You'd need an ops inspector to wave you off at every site to enforce any rules. It all comes down to being able to make that one decision, can you say no when the red faced boss is giving you the hairdryer treatment on the night? I suggest if you know that your relationship with your employer is otherwise, you're in the wrong industry. I have driven home in the past, expecting a job debrief from the boss next day after saying no, due to weather, and it never happened. I've flown military, police and corporate and in my opinion corporate/private is living on your wits with little or no back-up, it really takes a strong character to last in that industry.
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In the published aerial video it seems that the first contact was in the vicinity of the line of straw bales ( parts of the wreck ), then a heavy impact in the freshly ploughed field ( crater ) and finally the wreck came to rest in opposite direction.
skadi
skadi
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Re the 139 auto approach
The 139 does have a 4 axis AFCS and can fly a very accurate approach to the hove and even do a go around when initiated. However it does need to be set up correctly including defined parameters and location etc. In this case, from what I can surmise, I think that the accident has happened in the early stages of flight and that the approach mode will not have been set up. Of course, it only works well when everything is working correctly.
Regarding the possibility of some sort of power loss, the 139 has excellent OEI performance but it does depend upon what is around you in the form of obstructions.
There are a number of possibilities as to the cause and the AIB will in due course come up with an answer. Speculation, "eye witnesses" and armchair "experts (spotters)" do very little to help the situation apart from spread bad rumour.
In my opinion JV is the radio equivalent of gutter press, he will always take a contrary argument and interview so called "experts" to get a bit of a sensationalist view on a subject. I stopped listening to him a long time ago as he never seemed to give an unbiased outlook on a subject.
God speed to the four who sadly passed away in this tragedy. My thoughts are with their families.
Regarding the possibility of some sort of power loss, the 139 has excellent OEI performance but it does depend upon what is around you in the form of obstructions.
There are a number of possibilities as to the cause and the AIB will in due course come up with an answer. Speculation, "eye witnesses" and armchair "experts (spotters)" do very little to help the situation apart from spread bad rumour.
In my opinion JV is the radio equivalent of gutter press, he will always take a contrary argument and interview so called "experts" to get a bit of a sensationalist view on a subject. I stopped listening to him a long time ago as he never seemed to give an unbiased outlook on a subject.
God speed to the four who sadly passed away in this tragedy. My thoughts are with their families.
Other media reports/photos indicate that the first contact might have been with the trees that are closer to the road.
Other media reports/photos indicate that the first contact might have been with the trees that are closer to the road.
Here in the second picture theres one straw bale, which was turned over and some parts of the wreck in front of.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....orfolk-6835790
skadi
Art of Flight is exactly right when he said "corporate/private is living on your wits with little or no back-up, it really takes a strong character to last in that industry."
I would not recommend this work to any pilot who is "professional" in his approach to flying, standards of airmanship will be compromised many times by commercial pressure and/or owners who are used to getting their own way and want to get there like NOW. I had several head to heads with more than one owner ..... e.g. why can't you land in fog? .... why won't you fly in cloud (in a 206L) so and so does, you are an amateur pilot .... why won't you land there, the last pilot did .... and I had more than one narrow escape in fog and low cloud when I was tasked by my company (an AOC holder) to fly as P2 in a company maintained private helicopter but with the owner's own P1. I am of the opinion that that pilot survived more through luck than skill and judgement, but he had to get the job done to please his boss and keep his extremely well paid job. My company's chief pilot had that same frame of mind when the company chairman wanted to fly, or when another private owner's aircraft operated by the company overloaded the number of passengers in his aircraft. When the question of safety was raised the answer was that the company could not criticize the owner or his pilot because otherwise they might lose the maintenance and/or pilot contracts.
I retired many years ago and in those days the CAA weren't interested in "private" helicopter operations, even when they were flown by crews employed by a company holding an AOC. I hope things have changed by now.
My advice, if you are a professional, is fly with a big company, at least you will then have the support of proper rules and, more importantly, the support of other pilots with a professional attitude to their work. In a small company pilots are afraid of losing their jobs if they don't toe the line.
My heartfelt sympathies for the crew of G-LBAL and their relatives.
I would not recommend this work to any pilot who is "professional" in his approach to flying, standards of airmanship will be compromised many times by commercial pressure and/or owners who are used to getting their own way and want to get there like NOW. I had several head to heads with more than one owner ..... e.g. why can't you land in fog? .... why won't you fly in cloud (in a 206L) so and so does, you are an amateur pilot .... why won't you land there, the last pilot did .... and I had more than one narrow escape in fog and low cloud when I was tasked by my company (an AOC holder) to fly as P2 in a company maintained private helicopter but with the owner's own P1. I am of the opinion that that pilot survived more through luck than skill and judgement, but he had to get the job done to please his boss and keep his extremely well paid job. My company's chief pilot had that same frame of mind when the company chairman wanted to fly, or when another private owner's aircraft operated by the company overloaded the number of passengers in his aircraft. When the question of safety was raised the answer was that the company could not criticize the owner or his pilot because otherwise they might lose the maintenance and/or pilot contracts.
I retired many years ago and in those days the CAA weren't interested in "private" helicopter operations, even when they were flown by crews employed by a company holding an AOC. I hope things have changed by now.
My advice, if you are a professional, is fly with a big company, at least you will then have the support of proper rules and, more importantly, the support of other pilots with a professional attitude to their work. In a small company pilots are afraid of losing their jobs if they don't toe the line.
My heartfelt sympathies for the crew of G-LBAL and their relatives.
Last edited by 76fan; 15th Mar 2014 at 22:27.
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The 139 does have a 4 axis AFCS and can fly a very accurate approach to the hove and even do a go around when initiated.
Last edited by chopjock; 15th Mar 2014 at 12:08.
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76 Fan, ArtofFlight;
Well said, Under the new EASA rules a corporate ops manual is a requirement which may give some protection, also under the new rules helicopters which are on AOC's will be required to operate to AOC standards at all times. Those two should give coronaries to some of the private owners who use the AOC system to play the taxman.
I'm ugly enough to tell it like it is, I used to use "I'm not paid enough to die for you" that changed to "I'm the only me I've got and my family would like me back tonight." Nowadays its "you listen to your lawyers, bankers and accountants, well I'm the same as them, but my advice is based on keeping you alive."
I've twice seen signs in helicopter cockpits and several times had owners say "You're the expert, I'm not offended by the word no." I do make it very clear to owners/customers that when I say no, I will have looked at every option, and no means there is no safe way to carry out the flight. I've rarely seen a problem after adopting a direct approach, and when I have I've been relieved to walk away.
SND
Well said, Under the new EASA rules a corporate ops manual is a requirement which may give some protection, also under the new rules helicopters which are on AOC's will be required to operate to AOC standards at all times. Those two should give coronaries to some of the private owners who use the AOC system to play the taxman.
I'm ugly enough to tell it like it is, I used to use "I'm not paid enough to die for you" that changed to "I'm the only me I've got and my family would like me back tonight." Nowadays its "you listen to your lawyers, bankers and accountants, well I'm the same as them, but my advice is based on keeping you alive."
I've twice seen signs in helicopter cockpits and several times had owners say "You're the expert, I'm not offended by the word no." I do make it very clear to owners/customers that when I say no, I will have looked at every option, and no means there is no safe way to carry out the flight. I've rarely seen a problem after adopting a direct approach, and when I have I've been relieved to walk away.
SND
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In a small company pilots are afraid of losing their jobs if they don't toe the line.
I might lose my job, but I'm certainly not afraid of doing so. I walked from my last job because I was no longer prepared to deal with stupidity by passengers who thought they knew more about flying than than a pilot of over thirty years of professional experience.
However, I am afraid of losing my life, or at least my licence, if I don't do what I know is safe!
SND, too right!
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@ Skadi ..... Ok, that was not mentioned in the video. My assumtions were that the contact with the straw bales made the helicopter to flip over during a flare or so. This could explain the obviously heavy nose down impact.
Latest Anglia News - ITV News
Go down to about the third video titled "Bodies removed"
So will the 4 axis AFCS also allow a vertical take off profile with CATA performance and continue with a positive ROC with OEI with no visual references?
A few ways to skin the cat however, a vertical profile can be achieved with or without HOV (HOV - trim the height up) and once at an appropriate height TU (transition up) can be used to get into forward flight - it will default to 80 KIAS/200ft RADALT however these parameters can be easily adjusted - ie 1500 ft etc..once there, other modes can be used....depends also on the terrain etc. So far as OEI flyaway in these configuartions, like any helicopter depends on AUW etc etc?
Cheers