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Old 14th Mar 2014, 11:58   #61 (permalink)
 
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Sad news. AW139 is a very capable aircraft even in the most adverse conditions when used to its full potential. The UK SAR crews have to routinely explore poor weather conditions with low level IMC ops day & night.
Senseless loss.
Yes times 3.

But the fact is (how insensitive the timing is for making any conclusions), SAR and military crews are trained for it, and train for it in their flying program.

The crew flying the VIP 139 is not (up to it), no matter their former experience.

And you brake the rules if you take off VFR in fog (or into fog patches).

All my sympathy goes so far to the crew and pax.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 11:59   #62 (permalink)
 
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Pitts.....is that all you have to fret about?

If you have some concerns about posts being deleted....send a PM to Senior Pilot which would be far more an appropriate venue than a thread about a Crash that killed four people.

Or.....perhaps you might just take a hint when you see your posts disappearing.
I'm not really fretting. Just asking the question.

Seriously you can't see any interest at all when a AW139 shunts in poor weather near a private site and those prior threads?

and yeah I asked Senior Pilot... waiting the reply
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 12:16   #63 (permalink)
 
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Tango123;


I refer you to posts 45 and 46, a lot of highly experienced civvie crews train for it, and use that training regularly.


SND
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 12:36   #64 (permalink)

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Shy;
If you understood how these private operators don't have the "ops" infrastucture that you have been, and are privileged to enjoy, you might understand that it is entirely plausible that the post was a genuine request. My wife would have been in a similar dilemma. Terribly worried but no-one available to ask at the time.
Perhaps it's time to utilise such things as 'Find my iPhone'.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 13:11   #65 (permalink)
 
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Video now posted:


Helicopter Crash scene, Gillingham, Norfolk. ©Archant 2014 - YouTube
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 13:30   #66 (permalink)
 
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I live just a few miles from the crash site.Between Beccles and the coast,the crash site being about one mile west of the town.I was working in the garden all afternoon and only went in when it got dusk about 6pm.The three quarters full moon was clearly visible at 730 when I went back out to check on the bonfire that I had lit.

Gillingham though is beside the River Waveney and the fog forms there much more densely and often in patches.My guess is that they decided to fly and were in one of the less dense parts but quickly ran into a patch.My wife came in about seven and said she ran into some thick stuff that was clear after a couple of hundred metres.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 13:30   #67 (permalink)

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Seems that Pitt has a point.
After all, the media are picking up on the request for a refund due to the aircrafts problems, so why not have a look at the company culture mentioned in all those previous threads. A culture that is possibly involved here.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 13:34   #68 (permalink)
 
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BBC news just carried an aerial shot of the crash site. There does not appear to me to be significant forward speed evident in the debris layout, and it is close to trees just over-flown.

PPL holder interviewed suggests dense fog at the time of take-off.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 13:51   #69 (permalink)

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Organgrinder (2 posts)
Oh, its in the papers so it must be true, ******* idiot.
Thank you for your contribution over an issue that has been running for quite a while before this incident.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 13:57   #70 (permalink)
 
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In fact, it OFTEN used to fly single pilot.


RIP Mate!!
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 14:02   #71 (permalink)
 
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An observation on the posted video.

Main rotor totally destroyed, tail rotor virtually intact.

Not being either an helicopter pilot or an engineer having any significant knowledge of such machines, I would not presume to infer too much but would anyone more knowledgeable care to comment?
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 14:06   #72 (permalink)
 
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You do wonder when...

I found the old PPRuNe threads as one of them was the No.4 most popular on a simple google search when looking for Haughey Air, it doesn't make flattering reading. Its not the only thread with similar wording, and that's just on this site.

Add this:-

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/fil...ral/4719-0.PDF

and one wonders why the anger is directed to someone just reflecting the obvious. (obvious by which I mean there seems to be background issues)
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 14:27   #73 (permalink)
 
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Devil

I wonder if the pressures of corporate flying have come to bear here.
Just a thought as I have been there many times and have been lucky.

RIP to all those who perished......
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 14:30   #74 (permalink)
 
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Corporate is strange world,they spent 15 milion euros for aw139 and save 2500 month for a copilot onboard
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 14:41   #75 (permalink)
 
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Genuine question.

This is being described as a VFR operation. But it's clearly an immensely capable IFR aircraft.

Are we saying the pilot didn't hold a valid Instrument Rating, or that the AOC was for VFR ops only?

Or simply that this was a VFR manoeuvre whilst not in VMC?

Or have I completely misunderstood

Cheers.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 15:35   #76 (permalink)
 
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If they were going to fly IFR they would need to take off from a site that had an approved departure procedure that would mean they did not hit anything as they took off.
I very much doubt that anyone has invested in having had this done for a private site.
It's not just about the airframe or the pilot's qualifications it is also about the infrastructure surrounding them such as departure procedures and approache plates etc.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 16:12   #77 (permalink)
 
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FSX, On the subject you raise,BBC Look East this lunchtime showed footage of the aircraft taking off from Gillingham Hall.It struck me that it looked potentially quite tricky.They were using the lawn of the house and the whole site was surrounded by mature tall trees.I would imagine that in poor visibility it would be very easy to clip a branch on your way out.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 18:14   #78 (permalink)
 
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I accept all your comments.

Good to hear that this was a two crew operation in an excellent aircraft. The Bournemouth accident was really being used as the source of the CAA review material. The Carter accident does have many parallels however. But that is just one and I don't really havea figure of how common this type of flying is these days.

I am sure that in these areas of dense fog patches, moon possibly shining through on occasions, a sound flying decision can quickly become a bad one.

I too saw the BBC footage of the aircraft taking off from the property, and didn't fancy it much. Also, flying for Haughey Air, with Mr Haughey in the back must be an enormous pressure - I have no reason to doubt that the crew would have had no issues with standing down, if they genuinely had concerns about the flight.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 18:17   #79 (permalink)

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Sp25, wouldn't that depend on the cockpit gradient?
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 18:31   #80 (permalink)
 
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SP25 - I reference this because it gives a clear picture of the crash site:-

Was helicopter in Norfolk crash that killed Lord Ballyedmond safe? | Mail Online

Now not being funny but that suggests to me that it was shunted within a few hundred metres of lifting. So did the weather really change that much??

To be honest its irrelevant because we have what we have.

The bigger point is that it is clear the CAA needs to get involved to better protect commercial pilots from the pressure to fly when it is marginal and to look at what flying is done into and out of private sites.
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