AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk
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Education is more effective than prosecutions.
I did just over six hours flying today with about 25 differant people and every single group has asked about Thursday night as if I had all the answers , just like they did after Glasgow
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SASless
My comments related to the UK, where aviation is highly regulated.
I know there is cause for concern re US EMS ops.
FOCLH
Well said. I'm never sure whether some people forget that or just don't care.
It will be no consolation to you, but the comments on this thread are more restrained than is often the case in discussions following fatal accidents.
As you say, everyone has a point of view. Unfortunately, on an open forum, 'everyone' includes people who have never flown a helicopter or any aircraft.
ShyTorque
Excellent post.
FairWeatherFlyer
It is my informed opinion.
Not yet published, but I shall probably do so (in expanded form) when I retire.
True.
Yet you advocate more prosecutions?
As I said, in relation to aviation, "Education is more effective than prosecutions."
FL
My comments related to the UK, where aviation is highly regulated.
I know there is cause for concern re US EMS ops.
FOCLH
I respect the fact that everyone has a point of view, but please remember that these pilots were real people, good people; with families and friends, some of whom read your posts.
It will be no consolation to you, but the comments on this thread are more restrained than is often the case in discussions following fatal accidents.
As you say, everyone has a point of view. Unfortunately, on an open forum, 'everyone' includes people who have never flown a helicopter or any aircraft.
ShyTorque
Excellent post.
FairWeatherFlyer
is that an opinion or based on (published) research?
Not yet published, but I shall probably do so (in expanded form) when I retire.
I can think of other industries where hundred million dollar fines do little to change dubious habits.
Yet you advocate more prosecutions?
As I said, in relation to aviation, "Education is more effective than prosecutions."
FL
Of course the possibility for prosecution, fine and education are limited in circumstances such as this. If indeed they are even warranted, although being pragmatic one struggles to understand an attitude that resists engagement because there is a lack of a formal report when there are interesting avenues for discussion that have been thrown up by this accident, regardless of where they actually turn out to be the specific cause or not.
The element of commercial pressure is interesting and oddly people who have contributed here seem reluctant to clarify the prior concerns over this owner despite it being a potential elephant in the room. More so when a very capable machine seems to have been crashed with reasonable forward speed, where weather is being questioned within meters of its departure, the wreckage lying by a cluster of trees...
On the balance of probabilities...
Also the prevailing attitude that suggests "if I don't like things I just walk" might save you but isn't really conducive to preventing the problem. All it does is put someone else in a bad spot where they have to make that tough decision at some point in the future.
The element of commercial pressure is interesting and oddly people who have contributed here seem reluctant to clarify the prior concerns over this owner despite it being a potential elephant in the room. More so when a very capable machine seems to have been crashed with reasonable forward speed, where weather is being questioned within meters of its departure, the wreckage lying by a cluster of trees...
On the balance of probabilities...
Also the prevailing attitude that suggests "if I don't like things I just walk" might save you but isn't really conducive to preventing the problem. All it does is put someone else in a bad spot where they have to make that tough decision at some point in the future.
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Pitts, I hear what you're saying, however there tends not to be room to negotiate with an employer in this little industry, so walking is the only course of action. If enough people walk over enough years from a small operation then any little bit of research (even on PPRUNE) when answering the job advert should help inform as to why the job is vacant and what you'll be getting into.
Pitts, I hear what you're saying, however there tends not to be room to negotiate with an employer in this little industry, so walking is the only course of action. If enough people walk over enough years from a small operation then any little bit of research (even on PPRUNE) when answering the job advert should help inform as to why the job is vacant and what you'll be getting into.
One might think it would be possible to report things that are done badly and expect the same formal report back as you would in an accident scenario. That at least removes the most obvious quip that the departing pilot got fired and any complaint is just bad blood/ sour grapes etc.
Avoid imitations
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All it does is put someone else in a bad spot where they have to make that tough decision at some point in the future.
Problem is, when certain people get to certain high positions (I'm referring to passengers now, and their mentality) pilots are often the only people who say no to them.
Too True, Shy!
Usually it is only Money that gets lost when the Yes Men tug their forelock but with Pilots it is far more at stake than mere money.
Usually it is only Money that gets lost when the Yes Men tug their forelock but with Pilots it is far more at stake than mere money.
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Even the 'CHIRP' system doesn't work in this industry, an employer would soon know who was reporting, so I say again, the only course of action is to save yourself and walk. These days of the internet help us make informed decisions about the good and bad of the industry and it's so small that word of mouth is fairly reliable.
So what is the solution?? Because as has been pointed out there are many many posts on a variety of threads that have called out Haughey Air.
So regardless of this accident, what happens to that/those complaints? Just tittle tattle in a crew room, rolled eyes from the cynical and another post on an internet forum?
Because one way its just a moan up about the innocent - the consequences of which are nothing more than idle chit chat. The other way it could have prevented 4 people getting killed.
So regardless of this accident, what happens to that/those complaints? Just tittle tattle in a crew room, rolled eyes from the cynical and another post on an internet forum?
Because one way its just a moan up about the innocent - the consequences of which are nothing more than idle chit chat. The other way it could have prevented 4 people getting killed.
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I'm sure if you have a 'specific' complaint you face the employer with it and it gets dealt with. I do tend to think it's only the employees of a specific company with a specific complaint that can do anything, you try, it doesn't change to your satisfaction, so you leave. If you want to work elsewhere in the industry and want a reference you might need to be a little cautious with comments about your previous employer. Thats just how it works in most tiny industries with a small workforce. I'm not sure there is 'another way' as you put it.
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My comment is not related to the pilots of the AW139 in this case; I have neither knowledge nor understanding of the specific event.
I am in agreement with Shy (post 213).
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks / wants. Are you the Captain or not?
If you are then it is your responsibility to keep the aircraft, the crew, the passengers and others on the ground safe in relation to the flight that you will command, and to conduct the flight in accordance with the laws / rules of good airmanship. No-one else has that responsibility, could exercise that responsibility for you, ore relieve you from the legal consequences of your failing to take that responsibility. If you, the pilot, take to the air in unsafe conditions it is your decision (under pressure or not) and you must take responsibility for that act.
Claiming later that it wasn't really your fault because 'successful people are bullies' is actually pitiful.
As said elsewhere in this thread; if you don't have the character to be a captain in private operations (or charter, or any other business environment) then you should not be looking for those positions. Get yourself a job where the demands suit your abilities or, one day, it just might be you that features in the news.
No amount of additional regulation is going to make up for a captain of weak character.
I am in agreement with Shy (post 213).
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks / wants. Are you the Captain or not?
If you are then it is your responsibility to keep the aircraft, the crew, the passengers and others on the ground safe in relation to the flight that you will command, and to conduct the flight in accordance with the laws / rules of good airmanship. No-one else has that responsibility, could exercise that responsibility for you, ore relieve you from the legal consequences of your failing to take that responsibility. If you, the pilot, take to the air in unsafe conditions it is your decision (under pressure or not) and you must take responsibility for that act.
Claiming later that it wasn't really your fault because 'successful people are bullies' is actually pitiful.
As said elsewhere in this thread; if you don't have the character to be a captain in private operations (or charter, or any other business environment) then you should not be looking for those positions. Get yourself a job where the demands suit your abilities or, one day, it just might be you that features in the news.
No amount of additional regulation is going to make up for a captain of weak character.
Claiming later that it wasn't really your fault because 'successful people are bullies' is actually pitiful.
As said elsewhere in this thread; if you don't have the character to be a captain in private operations (or charter, or any other business environment) then you should not be looking for those positions. Get yourself a job where the demands suit your abilities or, one day, it just might be you that features in the news.
No amount of additional regulation is going to make up for a captain of weak character.
As said elsewhere in this thread; if you don't have the character to be a captain in private operations (or charter, or any other business environment) then you should not be looking for those positions. Get yourself a job where the demands suit your abilities or, one day, it just might be you that features in the news.
No amount of additional regulation is going to make up for a captain of weak character.
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Aren't even the smallest of operations supposed to have a fully functioning Safety Management System these days? If they do have one worthy of the name, then it will probably contain words and phrases that offer the captain protection when he makes a decision based on safety grounds.
Walking solves nothing in either the short or long term and merely stores up problems before some poor soul eventually suffers the inevitable crash.
Walking solves nothing in either the short or long term and merely stores up problems before some poor soul eventually suffers the inevitable crash.
So....if I were to perceive the need to move on for any number of good valid reasons, do so in a manner that protects my reputation, work references, avoids my having to go to court perhaps to recover unpaid salary....and some other fellow fills my vacancy, makes a bad decision and destroys an aircraft/occupants.....it then becomes my fault somehow?
You must live in a much simpler World than the rest of us.
The UK is a very small place....with a helicopter industry that is very small in size and numbers....reputations precede most to their new employment and all it takes is one unhappy former employer and finding work could get awfully hard.
There are many factors that have generated the situation extant re being able to stand up for what is right but having to pay a price for it in far too many situations.
The Safety Manual is fine....and sounds good in Court.....but it is the ex-officio networking that poses the real threat to sound decision making that ruffles the feathers of those who make the Hiring decisions.
You must live in a much simpler World than the rest of us.
The UK is a very small place....with a helicopter industry that is very small in size and numbers....reputations precede most to their new employment and all it takes is one unhappy former employer and finding work could get awfully hard.
There are many factors that have generated the situation extant re being able to stand up for what is right but having to pay a price for it in far too many situations.
The Safety Manual is fine....and sounds good in Court.....but it is the ex-officio networking that poses the real threat to sound decision making that ruffles the feathers of those who make the Hiring decisions.
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Well, in the short term, walking or being pushed because of owners not agreeing with Captains decisions should make the owner realise there's something that needs looking at. In the longer term if enough walk, the owner REALLY should realise that he's not doing something right. It's a stark choice sometimes, the problem is and has been that for sometime there are more pilots looking for jobs than there are jobs, and the employers know it. That's why inexperienced pilots are willing to take just about any Ts & Cs to get on the ladder, and once they're on it, it's hard get off. Particularly when training debts and TR bonds are involved.
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Only if the industry contains 'Captains' who lack the strength of character to obey the rules. The replacement will take the same stand you did and hence rules are followed and standards of airmanship are maintained.
So; weed out 'Captains' who break the rules or who do not show good airmanship. They don't have the skills to be 'Captains' and should be P2. The people best placed to do the "gardening" are the regulatory authorities, backed by clear and honest reporting by everyone in the industry.
"Not my fault, the 'rich man made me do it'" It sounds like the kind of thing an adolescent says when caught out.
PS. Anyone who can't take responsibility for the flight (including saying 'no'), please don't offer to fly me. I will stick with people who combine knowledge and experience with backbone, integrity and responsibility.
So; weed out 'Captains' who break the rules or who do not show good airmanship. They don't have the skills to be 'Captains' and should be P2. The people best placed to do the "gardening" are the regulatory authorities, backed by clear and honest reporting by everyone in the industry.
"Not my fault, the 'rich man made me do it'" It sounds like the kind of thing an adolescent says when caught out.
PS. Anyone who can't take responsibility for the flight (including saying 'no'), please don't offer to fly me. I will stick with people who combine knowledge and experience with backbone, integrity and responsibility.
How do you weed out these captains who show poor airmanship in a scenario similar to the thread we are posting in?? It seems almost binary to me. Either the flight goes without a hitch and who is any the wiser (remembering that the pax might and likely not have a clue re: aviation) OR it ends in a big mess and at that point its done.
Walking out and then having the accident happen to the replacement isn't your fault but then its also not being faithful to doing the utmost to prevent these situations.
I'll give you a recent "for example", recently an AW109 ended in a slight state after the pilot tried to put down in a field and misjudged things. That was down to grubbing around in poor weather. I'm not sure if he has learnt his lesson or not but you can be sure that if one waits for an AAIB report to modify behaviour it might be too late to learn anything.
I give that example because people who post here know the aircraft and pilot.
That kind of thing in the outside world is commonly known as turning a blind eye.
Walking out and then having the accident happen to the replacement isn't your fault but then its also not being faithful to doing the utmost to prevent these situations.
I'll give you a recent "for example", recently an AW109 ended in a slight state after the pilot tried to put down in a field and misjudged things. That was down to grubbing around in poor weather. I'm not sure if he has learnt his lesson or not but you can be sure that if one waits for an AAIB report to modify behaviour it might be too late to learn anything.
I give that example because people who post here know the aircraft and pilot.
That kind of thing in the outside world is commonly known as turning a blind eye.
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SASless
It's only your fault in a sense of collective industry responsibility for allowing unscrupulous or excessively demanding owners to keep doing what they're doing. If someone walks, they've saved themself but what about those they've left behind or those that replace them who may have less experience and be less confident in challenging the 'authority' of the owner or manager? If one speaks of the responsibility of captaincy, surely one aspect of that is confronting issues and standing up for what one knows is correct, not just making for the exit and leaving behind what one knows is an accident waiting to happen. As sure as eggs are eggs, it will.
It's only your fault in a sense of collective industry responsibility for allowing unscrupulous or excessively demanding owners to keep doing what they're doing. If someone walks, they've saved themself but what about those they've left behind or those that replace them who may have less experience and be less confident in challenging the 'authority' of the owner or manager? If one speaks of the responsibility of captaincy, surely one aspect of that is confronting issues and standing up for what one knows is correct, not just making for the exit and leaving behind what one knows is an accident waiting to happen. As sure as eggs are eggs, it will.
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Satsuma
It's not the owners who are doing it.
Your 'gripe' is against the pilots who fly the aircraft.
First step on the road to change is to accept the fault. Only the pilot can commence or continue a flight which breaks the law / regulations / rules of good airmanship. The 'unscrupulous or excessively demanding owners' are sitting in the back, not holding the controls. Collectively, as an industry and 'professional pilots' take ownership of the problem (if one exists) and stop evading responsibility with phrases like 'unscrupulous or excessively demanding owners'.
It's not the owners who are doing it.
Your 'gripe' is against the pilots who fly the aircraft.
First step on the road to change is to accept the fault. Only the pilot can commence or continue a flight which breaks the law / regulations / rules of good airmanship. The 'unscrupulous or excessively demanding owners' are sitting in the back, not holding the controls. Collectively, as an industry and 'professional pilots' take ownership of the problem (if one exists) and stop evading responsibility with phrases like 'unscrupulous or excessively demanding owners'.
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All very well telling us we have a moral duty beyond the end of our employment with a certain employer, but lets have some suggestions of what practical action you think will change things. A reality check.....This is a tiny industry with no unions, lots of freelancers scraping a no fly-no pay living, and many new entrants wanting your job without questions. Just have a look at the wannabies forum. There is no collective push for better Ts & Cs. I say again, in this specific case at least, this owner provided the latest state of the art aircraft and 2 pilot crewing, in his mind I'm sure he thought he was doing everything right.