Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

EC135 HEMS accident in Norway

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

EC135 HEMS accident in Norway

Old 17th Jan 2014, 23:37
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Two Pilots are Min.

Been Woalkabout.
What I was trying to say was not spesifick for this crash.
You Rotoheads need to realize That the Owl has a rather specialiced head , sight and sences. , hunts alone, at night. No problem.
You Do Not...!
So why not get a FO in the seat ,that is scared sensless,,,.and calls :SIR!,!:
In Canada in my C-185 I sure could need him, but space and weight and the migty Dollar did not permit that.
That is history,,,.
Gentlemen, stop , think , and take care of Your own.,only then can You take care of the public.
There is plenty of money, after all this NLA is a nonprofit org so good that the Norwegian Government ,Contracteted them to this job.
Anyway, focuson what You as a Profesional Helicopter pilot need for safety,
Not what the local power company can do.
Sincerely Yours
Cpt B
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2014, 13:02
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,452
Received 20 Likes on 14 Posts
Nobody will be wires-aware unless they are regularly flying in helicopters. Help from the ground regarding wires is too much to expect.

Terrain has a major effect. Here we have some wires where there is maybe 200m difference in vertical height between one tower and the next. If the wires weren't on the map that would make it a nightmare to work out what's going on in bad vis. There are at least 4 large lines like that in this glen and many more elsewhere. In parts of Norway it must be worse.

Has anyone ever tried ways of making other crew members more wires-aware?

For instance, if a co-pilot or crew medic spent a day with a power company flying wire checks periodically then that would bring a focus on the subject and an understanding of the way networks are laid out that would be hard to impart any other way. Power companies have an interest in helicopters not bringing down wires.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2014, 13:26
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
There are some good videos available about wire awareness for those interested. This is one I have used before:

Surviving the Wires Environment - General Aviation Flying Videos - AOPA
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2014, 15:25
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: no comment ;)
Age: 59
Posts: 822
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Training, more training and situation awareness, that is feasible way to go...
On other hand must strongly disagree with:
Help from the ground regarding wires is too much to expect.
Ground emergency services, (ground EMS, police, fire fighters)
must be capable to communicate and set up / mark safe landing zone.
Something like in this example:

9Aplus is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2014, 17:34
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,452
Received 20 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by 9Aplus
... ... Ground emergency services, (ground EMS, police, fire fighters) must be capable to communicate and set up / mark safe landing zone. ...
I used to think so.

Not going to happen.

Even if it does, most crews are going to think 'What do they know?' and just do their own thing. Seen it many times.

To a wet weary copper in the middle of nowhere, helicopters are either black magic or somebody else's problem or both.

The number of 'Ground/Maritime Emergency Service Personnel' who have a decent understanding of helicopters would be about 1 in every 50 on a good day. Murphy's law tells us that it will be her/his day off when they are really needed.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2014, 20:53
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: no comment ;)
Age: 59
Posts: 822
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Partially true, so we can give up...
or
Finally fill missing content on H pages of this document:
http://www.easa.europa.eu/sms/docs/E...14-2017%29.pdf

Page 30, 31
While the commercial air transport section of the EASp is organized in six areas within which issues and actions are identified, the helicopter section is lacking a similar structure.

Desired outcome

Establish priorities to focus action to mitigate safety issues affecting helicopter operations in future editions of the EASp

Proposed actions

Make a proposal to arrange the helicopter section of the EASp and seek an agreement with the Helicopter community
from:
EASA - European Aviation Safety Agency
9Aplus is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2014, 21:20
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,267
Received 467 Likes on 191 Posts
Originally Posted by jimf671
I used to think so.

Not going to happen.

Even if it does, most crews are going to think 'What do they know?' and just do their own thing. Seen it many times.

To a wet weary copper in the middle of nowhere, helicopters are either black magic or somebody else's problem or both.

The number of 'Ground/Maritime Emergency Service Personnel' who have a decent understanding of helicopters would be about 1 in every 50 on a good day. Murphy's law tells us that it will be her/his day off when they are really needed.
Ever heard of a concept called "Training"?

Get the EMS crews involved in the training of Ground Emergency Responders.....it is a common practice here in the United States....done every day somewhere.

You don't have to re-invent the wheel every time do you.....steal from others that are already doing what works.
SASless is offline  
Old 19th Jan 2014, 02:17
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,452
Received 20 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by SASless
Ever heard of a concept called "Training"? ...

Yes, I have SASless. I do a lot of it and I plan some of it too (including several mountain rescue helicopter exercises every year).

Let's look at the territory I know best. Scotland. It's a bit like Norway, but more compact.

3 Air Ambulances helicopters, one of which has limited capability compared to the other two. 4 SAR bases (2 of which are on islands and not as accessible for training), each of which normally has one aircraft available. Maybe just over 100 crew?

There are approximately 18000 police officers, 7000 firefighters, 2500 ambulance crew, 1000 lifeboat, 1000 mountain rescue, and 500 aux coastguard, any one of whom might have to work with those aircraft at remote locations. That's 30000 people who could end up being on some dodgy piece of ground or water waiting for one of those 7 aircraft to turn up, by day or by night.

Maybe around 1500 of them definitely require helo training because their role may require them to be flown in the aircraft. Another 500 may require to help with winching operations. Keeping those in date is a struggle (and the paperwork just got worse).

About those other 28000 SASless: are you going to come over here and train them on your day off?
jimf671 is offline  
Old 19th Jan 2014, 03:06
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,267
Received 467 Likes on 191 Posts
How many of those are paid staff of government run organizations?

What commitment does the Management of the government run organizations have to providing training? What amount of their training budget goes towards related training?

If you train a cadre.....can they not then in turn train others?

One has to be realistic.....until there is an acceptance of the need to gear up, train up, there will be no progress.

I've taken a wander through Scotland on more than a few occasions....by Helicopter, Airplane, Car, and foot.....it compares to some of the more rural places in my part of the country.

We found a way to get our Fire Brigades....both full time and Volunteer trained to the extent the system works. It is a constant effort to keep enough folks trained and current to provide the service....but we at least acknowledge the need to do so and work at getting it done.

It is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it serves the need.

We have over 800 EMS Helicopters in the Country....operated by government and private organizations....and Emergency services run by most every level of government and non-government operations most of which rely upon Volunteers.

Are you saying there isn't sufficient support for the training.....or the scale of EMS operations is such there is not enough need for it?

I have volunteered my services in the past.....for several projects.....one even in the UK.
SASless is offline  
Old 19th Jan 2014, 09:43
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 60
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 6 Posts
They can't get their basic core training done in the time available, never mind helicopter training. The bosses wouldn't even read past the first paragraph of a proposal. Many police officers are not even requalified for public disorder training these days.

It saves money..............................................
jayteeto is offline  
Old 19th Jan 2014, 20:28
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
SASless

Do you really expect answers to the questions you pose, asking about the level of commitment the management has to training and how much of their training budget goes on related training? Pretty much impossible to answer meaningfully, I'm sure. And not necessarily that relevant anyway - where a country spends its taxpayers' money will vary according many local factors.

You say your system works and I'm sure it does - to an extent. According to the interesting video link posted by Non-PC Plod on wire strikes, they are still the number one cause of fatal helicopter accidents in the US. And I'm sure some will be EMS.

You might like to think about the differences between jimf671's Scotland to your country - it might just not be as simple as the UK needing to follow your model. I can quite see why jim says it would be very difficult to train anyone on the ground likely to involved in an incident requiring an EMS helicopter to mark wires, as I understand the US EMS support team are good at doing. Perhaps it is partly because Scotland and the UK as a whole has so much less EMS activity than the US - I'd guess most police personnel will never be directly involved in an EMS helo landing in their whole careers, which makes applying more resources to training for marking overhead wires hard to justify. Surely too this is not something that can be done lightly - if ground crew are going to do it, the job's got to be done well or it could be more hazardous than nothing.

Of course I can see it's a big help to have wires marked on the ground, but just how much reliance should the helo crews put on this? One would have thought look out must be as vigilant as if none were marked - because some may be missed by the ground crew. And anyway, this US video says that 40% of wire strikes occur with wires the pilot knew were there.

One would have thought there would be detailed mapping of all power cables by the electricity boards - if not there surely should be. Could these maps not be obtained and over-laid on flight charts for vulnerable flight ops - eg police and EMS?
rotorspeed is offline  
Old 19th Jan 2014, 21:19
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: no comment ;)
Age: 59
Posts: 822
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
For sure you know about this safety work, done by REGA
9Aplus is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2014, 01:44
  #73 (permalink)  
"Just a pilot"
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jefferson GA USA
Age: 74
Posts: 632
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
Some LZ training with requesting agencies is better than none.

"jimf671" Said-

"Even if it does, most crews are going to think 'What do they know?' and just do their own thing. Seen it many times."

The PIC is ultimately responsible so, yes- I will do it my way each and every time. Nothing to do with demeaning those on the ground at the scene, their knowledge and experience, if that's your implication.

I will also interface with the requesting agency people on scene, whenever possible, and explain and train further. The better they do, the better we do, all better in the end for the patient population.


My program has a formal presentation that we offer to any and all agencies in our area. If requested, we make every effort to take the aircraft and flight crew to these training sessions. The physical presence and personal interaction reinforces the concepts presented. There is ALWAYS a lively question and answer session when the crew is present.
We remain in service, and if the training presents any potential delay, the program will frequently post other aircraft to provide better service.
Yes, these training sessions are additional to the requesting agencies primary mission and budget. Yet they are very well received.

"To a wet weary copper in the middle of nowhere, helicopters are either black magic or somebody else's problem or both." is an apt appreciation, but my experience is that those people are very, very interested in doing "the job" as well as they can. Offer them something to help, and it will be used.

The requesting agency staff are never Pathfinder level experts, but my belief is that some training is better than complete ignorance. I've been to many, many scenes and seen the value many, many times.

We did it the same way when there were only 3 aircraft in North Georgia, an area approximately the same size and population as Scotland. It's possible we have somewhat better climactic conditions...

Point is: it can be done and it does have a positive effect, even in imperfect conditions.

I don't know what happened in this particular accident, why, and whether ground personnel training and interface would have made any difference. I can see this happening with the pilot looking at the wire that was hit when he hit it.
Devil 49 is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2014, 02:28
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,267
Received 467 Likes on 191 Posts
49......the Brits just don't want to hear it!

They know all about how to do this EMS stuff don't you know....why look at the sheer numbers of them swarming about the UK day and night.

Mind you they have HSE Policies that forbid Fire Brigade Rescue Staff from using equipment that might save a life if they have not been trained on it....letting an injured person die as a result.

But hey.....you know....Rules are Rules and all that old Chap. We had a thread on that as i recall....something about a poor sod who fell into a deep hole....and old well or something....who expired before he was gotten out because some Management Type forbid the fire crew from improvising lifting gear and requiring them to wait many hours for "qualified" help to arrive.

The first time one of them cuts a set of Wires down and kills someone....perhaps we might remind them of the comments made in this thread.


Now seriously speaking.....49 confirms what I have been saying.

It is not a perfect world over here....but folks....we give it a serious effort to improve what we do.....and try to forge collaborative partnerships with those we work with in retrieving injured people from field sites.

It is in our very own best interests to do so.....as it is in yours too.

I challenge you to defend doing nothing as compared to what we do.
SASless is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2014, 07:12
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 8 Posts
SASLess,

Why so condescending?

What is being discussed is already enshrined within the appropriate regulations and guidance and, it would be imagined, is part of best practice for HEMS units world-wide.

Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d)

(b) Operations Manual. An operator must ensure that the Operations Manual includes a supplement specifying operational considerations specific to HEMS operations. Relevant extracts from the Operations Manual shall be made available to the organisation for which the HEMS is being provided. (See ACJ to Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d) sub-paragraph (b).)

(e)(4) Ground emergency service personnel. An operator shall take all reasonable measures to ensure that ground emergency service personnel are familiar with the following (see IEM to Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d), sub-paragraph (e)(4)):
(i) Two way radio communication procedures with helicopters;

(ii) The selection of suitable HEMS operating sites for HEMS flights;

(iii) The physical danger areas of helicopters;

(iv) Crowd control in respect of helicopter operations; and

(v) The evacuation of helicopter occupants following an on-site helicopter accident.
IEM to Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d), sub-paragraph (e)(4)
Ground Emergency Service Personnel
See Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d), sub-paragraph (e)(4)


The task of training large numbers of emergency service personnel is formidable. Wherever possible, helicopter operators should afford every assistance to those persons responsible for training emergency service personnel in HEMS support.
It is extremely difficult for ground personnel to make a difference when such sites have wires that are less than conspicuous and, in circumstances when other complications appear to be more pressing (the danger of white-out).

With respect to the efficacy of the second crew member: at the time when the pilot is making an approach to the HEMS Landing Site, full attention should applied to the dangers of obstacles in the flight path. There should be no distractions apart from the obvious one of missing difficult-to-see wires when the focus of attention is on the spot where the touch-down is to be carried out.

It is difficult to imagine what additional measures might be put into place to remove, or mitigate, such dangers in an operation where they are always present.

The REGA system of marking (on the moving map) all wires in an operational area is a good defensive strategy (when the operating area is relatively small).

The practice of a thorough pre-landing recce is already part of the operational practices of most HEMS units but the human is ever fallible.

Jim

Last edited by JimL; 20th Jan 2014 at 07:32.
JimL is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2014, 08:08
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: HLS map - http://goo.gl/maps/3ymt
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
The REGA system of marking (on the moving map) all wires in an operational area is a good defensive strategy (when the operating area is relatively small).
This is even possible for the entire UK on iPad now (happy to provide more info by PM).
Aucky is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2014, 14:45
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,452
Received 20 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by JimL

Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d)

sub-paragraph (e)(4)):

(i) Two way radio communication procedures with helicopters;

A little bit of a problem there.

In the case of a SAR aircraft working with mountain rescue, lifeboat or aux coastguard Marine FM band is used on Zero or the LandSAR calling channel.

In all other cases, Airwave (TETRA. Like Nodnett.) is expected to be the method for Air/Ground comms.

Murphy's Law, Airwave section, para one states that when the terrain in particular makes it really important then there won't be coverage.

Para two states that when enough emergency service personnel turn up to substantial rural incident scenes they overload the cell and the system isn't available.

Para three states that aircrew don't enjoy punching long numbers and checking talk-groups during the approach to challenging unsurveyed landing sites.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2014, 19:57
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,832
Received 71 Likes on 27 Posts
And don't forget Para 4. When you try to transmit on Airwave in an urgent situation it will just beep at you.
MightyGem is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2014, 21:46
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N/A
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So JimL you are still around, you're a bit scarce on the Glasgow thread.
AnFI is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2014, 21:46
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N/A
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
10^-9 i don't think so
AnFI is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.