So if not Robinson then what?

[LOZZ]

Having mostly lurked on this forum for the past 18 months and kept up with the ongoing Robinson debacle; I find myself wondering, if not the Robinson products, then what?

This assuming you're not able or prepared to raid the family coffers; to take on ridiculous levels of debt or crawl along at snail's pace celebrating ATPL(H) on one's 60th.

I'd rather not hear about Robbie's being OK and wading through another battle of statistics; equally not interested in anymore Robbie bashing (think it's mostly been said on this forum which ever way you see things). I am however interested in and hoping for people's positive and constructive opinions around the alternative types and how they see them matching up in respect of training/SFH cost; availability and career prospects.

You'll notice I have left out safety, though clearly the number one priority, I think this is where things get murky when weighing up safety versus cost (the ultimate answer to which is don't fly at all?); otherwise seems to what degree is subjective and dependent on the individual's personal risk assessment criteria and circumstances. Either way it gets muddy and most likely would drag us full circle back into Robbie bashing, which I imagine after a while gets tuned out by those who see no viable alternative.

Here are some of my no doubt misled thoughts on other types: Schweizer too slow; Enstrom likened to flying a wardrobe; Cabri no availability in the south of the UK. So for me at least that leaves the B206 at 3 times the cost of the R22 (given some operators require you to have a safety pilot to SFH, is that common?).

Its not just for my sake that I ask this but I dare say countless others out there, who during their Robbie flying hours must wonder the same occasionally.

Back to lurking for another 18 months.

[Gemini Twin]

Hughes 269 or should I say Schweizer 300.

[chopjock]

Schweizer too slow

Depends if you are in a hurry. If you are training, you need hours, right? not distance.

Enstrom likened to flying a wardrobe

A very safe wardrobe I might add. Well built, rugged and dependable.

What about a 500? a lot cheaper in many ways to a B206.

[Ian Corrigible]

Originally Posted by Gemini Twin

Hughes 269 or should I say Schweizer 300

...while you still can.

Table stakes
Helicopter Life blog March 6 2013

Started with a Sikorsky briefing in which the VP admitted that as far as Sikorsky was concerned Schweizer is dead. The company felt that as Schweizer made every part of the 300 it was just too expensive to continue the production line. They claimed that each 300 cost twice as much to make as it brought in. RIP 300. They will continue to maintain the remaining 300s, he said, but we know what bull**** that is: these guys are about to join the Brantlys and Bell 47s in the graveyard. Bye bye Schweizer we loved you well but alas no more.

I/C

[Savoia]

I don't think a lack of Cabri's in the south of England warrants writing them off!

You'll just need to generate some interested down there (maybe get a group going):


Cabri cockpit

Or .. if you really want to save money (and try something just a little different) then consider this:

[Dennis Kenyon]

Wardrobes

OR .... if you want to see a flying 'Wardrobe' doing a loop ... check out Dennis Kenyon Helicopter sales and Pilot Training (2nd video). And as others will tell you ... the safest helicopter ever in the UK. (never been a fatal) DRK

[FLY 7]

I'm not particularly 'anti-Robinson' - quite like the R44 RII and the R66 looks promising, I've met Frank, been to the Factory....But, I read many of the accident reports with unease, including Martin Rutty's.

We know the R22 was developed as a low cost helicopter, not specifically for training. And this basic design has evolved into the R44 and R66, all with the same teetering rotorhead.

Now, I've no doubt, flown correctly and following Robinson's safety course, it should be as safe as many other helicopters. However, for the moment, I prefer a fully articulated 3-blade rotorhead, and as many other safety features as possible.

For basic training I was recommended to the S.300 - but specifically the 'C' model. The new Cabri also looks attractive, but an expensive acquisition in the current market, and many buyers will want to see a longer service record before committing.

I also like the Enstroms, and the 480B is, IMO, the best entry level turbine with an excellent safety record and used prices not much above a newish R44. Then, of course you've got older B206s and H500s. After that prices and costs start to escalate.

Going back to Enstrom, I know they are a much smaller manufacturer, but they publish an annual Safety Update. The 2012 Report shows (Worldwide):

- 10 fatalities in accidents since 1997
- That's 0.66 fatalities per annum
- No fatal accidents since 2009
- 2 minor injury accidents in 2012

[FSXPilot]

Also no fatal accidents in the UK ever in Enstroms.

[FSXPilot]

Martin Rutty's accident had little to do with the type of helicopter he was flying. I would not that let you could your judgement. I'm not a fan of Robinsons but that accident had nothing to do with them.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Dunno who's been telling you Enstroms are "flying wardrobes" but I'd change my "adviser" if I were you. He is clearly misinformed, and that's being very charitable indeed.

[mickjoebill]

If you can't find an alternative, a GPS breadcrumb trail, a fuel bladder, flight helmet and flight suit should in general improve your odds a little, in a R44.

An eyewitness report of the crash in Oz stated that the pilot exited the craft wearing a helmet, but died on scene. No word if he was wearing a nomex flight suit. Four die as chopper clips trees and explodes near Bulli Tops, south of Sydney | News.com.au

These guys tried to help the pilot out.
Bulli Tops tragedy: men traumatised by helicopter rescue attempt | Illawarra Mercury

They said it basically hit trees, landed heavily, with rotors still turning then popped up a few feet and rolled over. Rescuers tried to right it but it was too heavy.

Mickjoebill

[cattletruck]

Cabris are the next gen of light piston helicopters, everything else is just furniture

[paco]

"Cabri no availability in the south of the UK."

There's one (or maybe 2 by now) at Kemble - at Cotswold Helicopter Centre. As for expense - look at the 12 year cost per hour The only time limited item is the engine.

And the Enstrom is certainly worth considering. As mentioned, you should change your advisor.

Phil

[moosp]

Cabri, most definitely. It may be a bit more expensive up front but over the years it will be cheaper. And it's a beaut to fly and built like a brick outhouse. A couple of rollovers have shown how survivable it is if you lose it.

Their rarity may keep the re-sale value up for a while so get a few mates and buy one.

Plug over

[Dick Sanford]

Dear Lozz

I am in the UK for all of April to beginning of May. I am at Sloane Helicopters on Sat 13th April talking to pilots about Various subjects including helicopter flight safety (that is helicopter flight safety) as I do not care which helicopter you fly, the same things will kill you. I am also conducting 3 Robinson Flight Safety Courses for various flying schools. Please feel free to contact me at anytime : [email protected]
Fly safely, keep your RPM in the green, D

[Norman Deplume]

Cabri group

If anyone is interested in setting up a group to buy a Cabri G2 can you Private Message me please.

Preferably to be based near Oxford or the Cotswolds.

Many thanks

[EN48]

I find myself wondering, if not the Robinson products, then what?

IMHO, it depends on what you wish to achieve. If you are preparing for a career as a helicopter pilot (except for instructing in Robbies) , it may be to your advantage to do all of your training in a turbine helicopter, as you will accumulate significant turbine time as part of the process. Even if you are not training for a career, it will be advantageous to train in a turbine helicopter if that is what you intend to fly after your training is complete.

While not intending to pursue a flying career, I did virtually all of my training through the CPL-I level in an Enstrom 480B and am presently working on the CFI-H in the same acft. Yes, its more expensive than an R22 but not a lot more than an R44 which even Robinson says is the preferred acft for training. And, the 480 is probably somewhat less costly than the 206.

The Enstrom line of helicopters are under-appreciated IMHO. I have owned a 480B and a B407 and believe the 480 is one of the best kept secrets in the helo world. Enstrom is said to be doing very well these days with a strong order book. The 480, as many here may know, was originally developed as the TH28 when the U.S. Army was soliciting bids for a new training helicopter some years ago. Bell won this contract (even though, it is said, the TH28 was the only bid which met Army requirements) so Enstrom "civilianized" the TH28 into the 480. Several governments around the world have recently selected the 480 as a military trainer. The 480 safety record is superb.

Every choice comes with tradeoffs. Cost is only one of the issues and in the fullness of time the cost difference between training in a piston helicopter and a basic turbine helicopter may be insignificant.

[splitneedles]

Air Force Trainers

Air Forces have different selection criteria for helicopter trainers than either PPLs or Flight Schools and initial purchase price is not number one on their list. Lifetime costs are of greater importance along with flight characteristics and crash survivability

The Cabri has just been selected by the Polish Air Force.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

splitneedles - I had heard that Cabri were going to announce a big order so perhaps this is the one.

Does anyone know what happened to Aerokopter? Did Ukranian politics get a little too much and drown the thing with corruption?

At one point it looked as if it could be the Robbie killer but then everything went quiet.

[helihub]

Cabri

Third Cabri arrives in UK about four weeks from now

Fourth Cabri arrives in UK in July for Helicentre at Leicester, who have put 60 hours a month on their first one - yes, through the UK winter as well.

Cabri sales are picking up all round - in France Heli Union just picked the type after a lengthy analysis, and as splitneedles says, Polish AF ordered - just two for the moment but they picked it over locally built types. The larger orders I am expecting in the months ahead are from higher profile customers than the Polish AF....

HeliHub