Recording of Flight Simulator TIme
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 75
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recording of Flight Simulator TIme
A colleague recently asked me if he could record his Level D sim time as 'Flight TIme'.
My instant response was 'don't be silly' but it seems there are a considerable number of people out there who believe that to be the case. They reason that if you can complete a TR on a level D FFS without touching the real aircraft then you must be able to record the sim time as 'flight time'.
Elsewhere on Prune there is a discussion about that question in the fixed wing context and it appears there may be grey areas within certain jurisdictions.
The only relevant reference I can find is in the UK LASORS document. My copy is 2007 and on page 39 of Appendix B to Section A it makes the following statement:
Can anyone point me towards something with a broader focus, either JAR or EASA derived protocol?
Thanks
G.
My instant response was 'don't be silly' but it seems there are a considerable number of people out there who believe that to be the case. They reason that if you can complete a TR on a level D FFS without touching the real aircraft then you must be able to record the sim time as 'flight time'.
Elsewhere on Prune there is a discussion about that question in the fixed wing context and it appears there may be grey areas within certain jurisdictions.
The only relevant reference I can find is in the UK LASORS document. My copy is 2007 and on page 39 of Appendix B to Section A it makes the following statement:
"STD time is creditable towards courses and licence issue but it is not flight time and must not be recorded as such. STD time must be recorded separately from flight time recorded in the logbook."
Thanks
G.
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: IOW
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can't help you there Geoff but I was equally surprised recently to be told by an experienced offshore pilot that he records all of his offshore flying as 'instrument flying' in his logbook. His rationale was that it was all flown on an IFR flight plan!
Don't know about you but the only 'instrument flying' I log is actual IMC.
Don't know about you but the only 'instrument flying' I log is actual IMC.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 75
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recording IFR
That's not uncommon. Believe it or not there are many around the word who record any flight on an IFR Flight Plan as IMC. That is wrong of course for the whole purpose of the recording of IMC time is to understand how much experience the pilot has flying by the sole use of instruments. The rationale behind the use of the Flight Plan gag comes from the FW world and based on the fact that if they are flying at 29,000 feet the they must be flying on instruments but of course an offshore pilot a 3,000 feet (or less) may well be VMC most (if not all) of the time.
In the end those that fiddle their logbooks are only cheating themselves for they in fact create a written record of their abuse for eternity. I have met a couple of guys recently who actually rewrote their entire logbook rather than live with what they now knew was wrong.
Of course that doesn't correct the fact that they used their 'fiddled' hours to get employment or maybe even an ATP or CPL. CV Fraud is a fact of life these days.
Before anyone asks - NO YOU CANNOT RECORD SFI TIME WORKING AT THE INSTRUCTOR STATION AS FLIGHT TIME.
G.
In the end those that fiddle their logbooks are only cheating themselves for they in fact create a written record of their abuse for eternity. I have met a couple of guys recently who actually rewrote their entire logbook rather than live with what they now knew was wrong.
Of course that doesn't correct the fact that they used their 'fiddled' hours to get employment or maybe even an ATP or CPL. CV Fraud is a fact of life these days.
Before anyone asks - NO YOU CANNOT RECORD SFI TIME WORKING AT THE INSTRUCTOR STATION AS FLIGHT TIME.
G.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: HLS map - http://goo.gl/maps/3ymt
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I've not flown offshore, or IFR as P1, but I have been flying about in cloud a bit in the last few weeks on the IR course, It's all pretty new to me so just wondering when your offshore 50-100nm from the nearest platform or land, auto-pilot on, does it really make a difference whether your in cloud or not (outside icing conditions)? As far as track guidance goes even in VMC surely your flying proper IFR for track guidance (perhaps GPS/RNAV in practice) on IFR clearances etc? Not too dissimilar from a guy at 29,000' in VMC? and would the departures and approaches be mostly flown as IFR in VMC or visually?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my logbook, there are 2 columns for these things.
Column 1 is: "IFR", which I log if it is an IFR flight.
Column 2 is "IF", I assume this means "Instrument Flying". So I log......yep, you guessed it.... instrument flying time.
As you all know, these are two completely separate things.
Needless to say, my "IFR" time is a lot more than my "IF" time.
The above is black and white to me. Anyone cheating their logbook deserves to be "beaten up", which I will log as "fell over".
On the other hand, reference cat D sims:
In the Middle East, I am told to log it under the normal columns, in the UK, I am told to log it in the bit at the front or back of the logbook entitled "sim practice", yet they all count towards the total hours.......
No one seems to agree on which is the correct way to log these hours. I'm open to input on this.
Column 1 is: "IFR", which I log if it is an IFR flight.
Column 2 is "IF", I assume this means "Instrument Flying". So I log......yep, you guessed it.... instrument flying time.
As you all know, these are two completely separate things.
Needless to say, my "IFR" time is a lot more than my "IF" time.
The above is black and white to me. Anyone cheating their logbook deserves to be "beaten up", which I will log as "fell over".
On the other hand, reference cat D sims:
In the Middle East, I am told to log it under the normal columns, in the UK, I am told to log it in the bit at the front or back of the logbook entitled "sim practice", yet they all count towards the total hours.......
No one seems to agree on which is the correct way to log these hours. I'm open to input on this.
I am confused.
IF and IFR?
Errrrr.....one either flies by reference to instruments or by looking out the Windows. One is Visual Flight and the other is Instrument flight.
Whether you are VFR or IFR has nothing to do with what you log re IF or Visual.
Do you log VFR and VF?
If you fly IFR into uncontrolled airspace, all the time in Clear blue and 22 weather....do you cease logging IFR upon leaving Controlled Airspace as you cannot fly IFR in Uncontrolled Airspace can you?
How do you log IFR in a Sim? You are not in Controlled Airspace...as you never left the inside of a fecking building!
IF and IFR?
Errrrr.....one either flies by reference to instruments or by looking out the Windows. One is Visual Flight and the other is Instrument flight.
Whether you are VFR or IFR has nothing to do with what you log re IF or Visual.
Do you log VFR and VF?
If you fly IFR into uncontrolled airspace, all the time in Clear blue and 22 weather....do you cease logging IFR upon leaving Controlled Airspace as you cannot fly IFR in Uncontrolled Airspace can you?
How do you log IFR in a Sim? You are not in Controlled Airspace...as you never left the inside of a fecking building!
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sasless,
That is my point.
Flying on instruments ("IF" in my logbook) is flying on instruments and has absolutely nothing to do with you being on an IFR flight ("IFR in my logbook") or a VFR flight.
Sorry if I did not explain my point better.
That is my point.
Flying on instruments ("IF" in my logbook) is flying on instruments and has absolutely nothing to do with you being on an IFR flight ("IFR in my logbook") or a VFR flight.
Sorry if I did not explain my point better.
Last edited by skillsndrills; 13th Oct 2012 at 02:55.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Below Escape Velocity
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, but what of those fellows who do an entire TR course on a FFS accumulating X hours, then are sent to the aircraft for a walkaround and a bit of handling for a further Y, then are released to the line with X+Y amount of time in type (as mandated by a client), almost all of which is in the sim? (And Geoffers, your place of synthetic employ most certainly does this) Did our intrepid airperson fly X+Y for the client, operator's, OEM's, training facility's and regulator's purposes or not? Doing it in this fashion becomes more likely with the increasing sophistication / weight / cost of the aircraft in question.
How time is recorded varies so widely worldwide that it almost might as well not be defined at all. I imagine that JAA wouldn't accept my logbook (for one thing, I didn't buy it from them, and they get a bit shirty about that sort of thing), though I can prove every entry in it, every hour of IMC, etc, though it would doubtless take weeks to do.
My logbook has a column for 'ground trainer' among other things, and all sim time goes in there. On the same line, if the sim session is an instrument one, the bulk of that time is also logged as 'simulated instrument'.
In olden times, separate pages in my mil logbook were saved for the sim.
To re-write an accurate logbook from one authority because a second authority doesn't like the format or what-have-you is ridiculous, and invites forgery, fat pencils, and other such abuses. Ultimately a pointless exercise.
Correcting substantive errata is something else entirely.
Certain armed services define any flying without reference to a visible horizon as IMC. Other folks use 'solely with reference to the flight instruments'. I could think of others if I had more coffee and time, but I'm off to log some VMC.
How time is recorded varies so widely worldwide that it almost might as well not be defined at all. I imagine that JAA wouldn't accept my logbook (for one thing, I didn't buy it from them, and they get a bit shirty about that sort of thing), though I can prove every entry in it, every hour of IMC, etc, though it would doubtless take weeks to do.
My logbook has a column for 'ground trainer' among other things, and all sim time goes in there. On the same line, if the sim session is an instrument one, the bulk of that time is also logged as 'simulated instrument'.
In olden times, separate pages in my mil logbook were saved for the sim.
To re-write an accurate logbook from one authority because a second authority doesn't like the format or what-have-you is ridiculous, and invites forgery, fat pencils, and other such abuses. Ultimately a pointless exercise.
Correcting substantive errata is something else entirely.
Certain armed services define any flying without reference to a visible horizon as IMC. Other folks use 'solely with reference to the flight instruments'. I could think of others if I had more coffee and time, but I'm off to log some VMC.
Looking through the AMC to Part FCL, it is clear that EASA consider Simulator time as 'Flight Time.'
http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measure...20Part-FCL.pdf
I see they have also amended the definition of helicopter flight time, compared to the previous UK definition - it now starts from the moment the rotors start turning, rather than when the aircraft first moves (for the purpose of taking off.)
http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measure...20Part-FCL.pdf
I see they have also amended the definition of helicopter flight time, compared to the previous UK definition - it now starts from the moment the rotors start turning, rather than when the aircraft first moves (for the purpose of taking off.)
Guest
Posts: n/a
I see they have also amended the definition of helicopter flight time
They changed the definition of "instrument flying time" in EASA-nothing any more with "no visible horizon".
The definition is "all the time that one flies an aircraft solely with reference on the instruments"....
Simulator time has NEVER be "real flight time"-and although many authorities advise their pilots to log sim hours in their logbook, they also say NOT to add these hours to the total flying hours...
If you can tell me which authorities would accept sim hours as "real flight time", i would be happy to send a few applications-as i can add another 2000 hours to my flight experience, including some flights on helicopters that i donīt even have a type rating on...
Huey, you're right, of course, about the definition of flight time. My comment was badly worded - I really meant that I wondered if the UK had now adopted that definition which previously they had not. I guess the latest ANO will contain the answer !
Did you open the link? It seems to be pretty explicit that you log the time as flight time.
2000 hours of sim time at 36? That's pretty good going - at least 125 hours per year since you were 20. If some of that time is as an instructor then of course it wouldn't count. Neither would time in a type you weren't rated on, as you wouldn't be operating in a genuine crew capacity.
Did you open the link? It seems to be pretty explicit that you log the time as flight time.
2000 hours of sim time at 36? That's pretty good going - at least 125 hours per year since you were 20. If some of that time is as an instructor then of course it wouldn't count. Neither would time in a type you weren't rated on, as you wouldn't be operating in a genuine crew capacity.
Last edited by 212man; 13th Oct 2012 at 09:12.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 75
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
212
I followed your link and read the text but failed to find the reference that classified STD time as 'Flight TIme'. Am I looking in the right section?
G.
G.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: HLS map - http://goo.gl/maps/3ymt
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Looking at pages 24-25 of the EASA FCL doc would imply to me that it is not 'flight time'. Look at the example shown on page 25 where the FSTD 'session' (not flight) is included in column 11 there is no suggestion in the column 10 that any pilot function is given. That cannot be considered flight time, it is logged separately in it's own FSTD column solely.
Last edited by Aucky; 13th Oct 2012 at 11:47.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 75
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aucky
I agree. Looks to me that there is no mechanism for conflating Flight Time and Sim TIme if the Log Book is supposed to differentiate the two.
I have heard it said that sim time can count towards Total Time but not towards Total FLight Time.
I guess it's logical to think that 'flight' time will require you to be 'in flight' but then I have learned to my cost that it's often dangerous to use 'logic' when dealing with authority.
G.
I have heard it said that sim time can count towards Total Time but not towards Total FLight Time.
I guess it's logical to think that 'flight' time will require you to be 'in flight' but then I have learned to my cost that it's often dangerous to use 'logic' when dealing with authority.
G.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Dubai
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rules....
Why is it that very experienced pilots are not able to find a clear answer to this?
Why do we regularly get debates about whether rules apply and if they do apply, how should they be applied?
How on earth do Authorities expect pilots to comply with rules if they aren't sure what the rules are.
Clarity and KISS.
Back to my GnT....
Why do we regularly get debates about whether rules apply and if they do apply, how should they be applied?
How on earth do Authorities expect pilots to comply with rules if they aren't sure what the rules are.
Clarity and KISS.
Back to my GnT....
Sandy....that sounds all nice and neat.....but what is your authority for making that comment. Cite a reference then perhaps it might have some merit. But not till then!
