V22 Osprey discussion thread Mk II
JD, according to Bell/Boeing:
Restricted Visibility Landings
The V-22 is capable of landing without visual reference to the ground via manual pilot control or automatic hovering autopilot functions. Where sand or dusty conditions occur, the V-22 may conduct a Restricted Visibility Landing (RVL) based on cockpit instrumentation. The aircraft displays indicate attitude, altitude, drift vector, drift acceleration, and power settings, which allows the aircraft to use its INS systems to land in complete brown-out conditions. RVL landings may use a coupled hover approach from 50 ft to vertical landing, or pilots may manually fly to a no-hover direct landing.
The V-22 is capable of landing without visual reference to the ground via manual pilot control or automatic hovering autopilot functions. Where sand or dusty conditions occur, the V-22 may conduct a Restricted Visibility Landing (RVL) based on cockpit instrumentation. The aircraft displays indicate attitude, altitude, drift vector, drift acceleration, and power settings, which allows the aircraft to use its INS systems to land in complete brown-out conditions. RVL landings may use a coupled hover approach from 50 ft to vertical landing, or pilots may manually fly to a no-hover direct landing.
Last edited by SansAnhedral; 1st Nov 2013 at 19:37.
I wonder where the money for those V-22's to Israel is coming from. 
I can't imagine these are being "gifted" as the entire reason that the sale was completed now as opposed to back in April was due to the Israeli defense budget only recently being approved.
So if the argument is merely "the US shouldnt be giving aid money to Israel" then the Osprey is a pretty poor pillory, as it would have just been spent elsewhere.
Better for US tax funded aid money to be spent back on domestic production than on foreign products.
So if the argument is merely "the US shouldnt be giving aid money to Israel" then the Osprey is a pretty poor pillory, as it would have just been spent elsewhere.
Better for US tax funded aid money to be spent back on domestic production than on foreign products.
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The V-22's particular capabilities are probably quite useful for certain missions the IDF may undertake. Both Bell/Boeing and the DoD are also quite happy that there is another customer for the V-22. Bell/Boeing is happy about selling more aircraft. And given the large mandatory annual defense spending cuts imposed by the President's budget sequester legislation, the DoD is happy because they can place these Israeli orders ahead of existing US military orders, providing a convenient way to delay some of their V-22 program costs without paying penalties.
It actually seems like a fairly reasonable deal since everyone involved gets some benefit.
It actually seems like a fairly reasonable deal since everyone involved gets some benefit.
Except perhaps the US Taxpayer.....
So had the IDF spent six Osprey's worth of funding (which the assumption here seems to be was all sourced from the US taxpayer) on additional Panthers, or on the construction of 50 of the 300 on order Merkava Mk IVs...exactly how would that be better for John Q Taxpayer?
Sans.....quite simple....deduct the amount "given" to the IAF by the DOD from the Deficit Spending for those Years. That equates to a smaller Debt.....less finance charge, less harm to the Economy.
If the IAF actually pays for the Aircraft I am fully on your side of the argument but not if the US Taxpayer is footing the Bill.
If the IAF actually pays for the Aircraft I am fully on your side of the argument but not if the US Taxpayer is footing the Bill.
Well now you are talking about the basic fiscal policy towards Israel, and it would seem riff-raff was stating that this deal was best for eveyone given the assumption the money was a sunk cost already.
The fact that the purchase had to be delayed until the defense spending bill was passed seems to hint that they are indeed at least partially paying for them.
The fact that the purchase had to be delayed until the defense spending bill was passed seems to hint that they are indeed at least partially paying for them.
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SA- The key part about this deal is that the V-22s for Israel get pushed to the front of the production line. This allows the USMC to shift the cost for some V-22 deliveries to the following fiscal year's budget. President Obama's budget sequester legislation requires around $75B in defense budget cuts for this year and next year. The only practical option the US military services have for accommodating these large spending cuts without hurting existing capabilities is by deferring deliveries of expensive new equipment/systems like V-22.
The DoD signed a contract for V-22 deliveries this year and next year before the sequester law took effect. Normally, the DoD would be required to provide a vendor some financial compensation for delaying an existing production contract. I don't know the terms of the existing contract between the DoD and Bell/Boeing, but we can make a rough guess on the potential cost savings if the deal allows the DoD to defer delivery/payment on 6 V-22s for a year. The current price for six V-22s is $402M, and the USMC can reduce its budget by that amount for the next fiscal year. Bell/Boeing does not suffer any financial harm since their V-22 production line can maintain its rate. One way to estimate the cost savings to the DoD from not having to pay a penalty for delaying V-22 deliveries would be calculating some amount of interest payment on $402M for a period of one year. It would not be a small amount of money.
The DoD signed a contract for V-22 deliveries this year and next year before the sequester law took effect. Normally, the DoD would be required to provide a vendor some financial compensation for delaying an existing production contract. I don't know the terms of the existing contract between the DoD and Bell/Boeing, but we can make a rough guess on the potential cost savings if the deal allows the DoD to defer delivery/payment on 6 V-22s for a year. The current price for six V-22s is $402M, and the USMC can reduce its budget by that amount for the next fiscal year. Bell/Boeing does not suffer any financial harm since their V-22 production line can maintain its rate. One way to estimate the cost savings to the DoD from not having to pay a penalty for delaying V-22 deliveries would be calculating some amount of interest payment on $402M for a period of one year. It would not be a small amount of money.
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U.S. Marine Corps MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft arrive at Villamor Airbase, Monday, Nov. 11, 2013 in Manila, Philippines, to deliver humanitarian aid for victims in the areas devastated by Typhoon Haiyan. Haiyan, one of the strongest storms on record, slammed into six central Philippine islands on Friday leaving a wide swath of destruction and scores of people dead. (AP Photo/Wong Maye-E)
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Good experience for MV-22 crews and much needed help for some people in the Philippines.
Ospreys Flying In Philippines; Up To 2K Marines Likely By Next Week « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
Ospreys Flying In Philippines; Up To 2K Marines Likely By Next Week « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
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Reports: Japan to buy Ospreys, Global Hawks
Marines get off a V-22 Osprey at the typhoon devastated town of Guiuan in The Philippines in November 2013. Seth Robson/Stars and Stripes
Seth Robson/Stars and Stripes
By Seth Robson Stars and Stripes
Published: December 16, 2013
YOKOTA AIR BASE, Japan — Japan plans to acquire its own fleet of V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft as part of a wider effort to counter China’s military build-up in the East China Sea, according to Japanese news reports.
The Japanese Self-Defense Forces are looking at buying 17 Ospreys, according to reports in major Japanese newspapers, which detail a five-year defense build-up that Japan’s cabinet is scheduled to vote on Tuesday.
The program, valued at 24.67 trillion yen ($238 million), includes new tanks, unmanned aircraft, aerial refuelers, submarines, destroyers and amphibious vehicles that could ferry ground troops ashore on remote islands, according to media reports. It will also include three Global Hawk surveillance drones, whose ability to hover at high altitudes for more than 30 hours will serve to strengthen Japan’s surveillance capabilities in the region.
The vote on the program follows China’s announcement last month of an East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone near what it calls the Diaoyu Islands, which the Japanese call the Senkaku. This partially overlaps Japan’s own Air Identification Zone, which was established in the 1950s and covers a much larger area all around that nation.
A spokesman for Japan’s Defense Ministry declined to comment Monday on the reports about the equipment purchases.
The first foreign sale of the Osprey, built by Boeing and Bell Helicopter, is expected to be to Israel. Besides Japan, several other countries are said to be interested in the aircraft, whose versatility was demonstrated after Typhoon Haiyan in the Philippines.
Japanese forces that were deployed to Philippines alongside U.S. troops noted the smooth performance of Ospreys ferrying supplies and personnel between major hubs, such as Tacloban and isolated villages struggling to recover from the disaster.
Marine Corps Ospreys have been flying missions out of Guam over the Northern Marianas Islands this month as part of an exercise dubbed Forager Fury II.
Marine Aircraft Group 12 commander Col. Hunter Hobson said Monday that his forces have been doing a variety of training in the islands. The Marines have practiced conducting forward air control missions, providing close air support and interdicting and defending against enemy aircraft.
“This is the first time we included the Ospreys,” he said.
During Forager Fury II the Ospreys were used to practice evacuating casualties and rescuing downed airmen — a mission that was performed by slower, twin-rotor CH-46 “Frogs” in past years, Hobson said.
“The problem is that (CH-46s) go slow and, because of that, they are in the target area and exposed to surface fire a lot longer,” he said.
The speed of the Ospreys means they can be escorted by F-18s, which fly too fast to follow a CH-46. The Ospreys can also range farther because, unlike CH-46s, they can refuel in flight, he said.
“It can go much deeper into enemy territory,” Hobson said.
Marines get off a V-22 Osprey at the typhoon devastated town of Guiuan in The Philippines in November 2013. Seth Robson/Stars and StripesSeth Robson/Stars and Stripes
By Seth Robson Stars and Stripes
Published: December 16, 2013
YOKOTA AIR BASE, Japan — Japan plans to acquire its own fleet of V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft as part of a wider effort to counter China’s military build-up in the East China Sea, according to Japanese news reports.
The Japanese Self-Defense Forces are looking at buying 17 Ospreys, according to reports in major Japanese newspapers, which detail a five-year defense build-up that Japan’s cabinet is scheduled to vote on Tuesday.
The program, valued at 24.67 trillion yen ($238 million), includes new tanks, unmanned aircraft, aerial refuelers, submarines, destroyers and amphibious vehicles that could ferry ground troops ashore on remote islands, according to media reports. It will also include three Global Hawk surveillance drones, whose ability to hover at high altitudes for more than 30 hours will serve to strengthen Japan’s surveillance capabilities in the region.
The vote on the program follows China’s announcement last month of an East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone near what it calls the Diaoyu Islands, which the Japanese call the Senkaku. This partially overlaps Japan’s own Air Identification Zone, which was established in the 1950s and covers a much larger area all around that nation.
A spokesman for Japan’s Defense Ministry declined to comment Monday on the reports about the equipment purchases.
The first foreign sale of the Osprey, built by Boeing and Bell Helicopter, is expected to be to Israel. Besides Japan, several other countries are said to be interested in the aircraft, whose versatility was demonstrated after Typhoon Haiyan in the Philippines.
Japanese forces that were deployed to Philippines alongside U.S. troops noted the smooth performance of Ospreys ferrying supplies and personnel between major hubs, such as Tacloban and isolated villages struggling to recover from the disaster.
Marine Corps Ospreys have been flying missions out of Guam over the Northern Marianas Islands this month as part of an exercise dubbed Forager Fury II.
Marine Aircraft Group 12 commander Col. Hunter Hobson said Monday that his forces have been doing a variety of training in the islands. The Marines have practiced conducting forward air control missions, providing close air support and interdicting and defending against enemy aircraft.
“This is the first time we included the Ospreys,” he said.
During Forager Fury II the Ospreys were used to practice evacuating casualties and rescuing downed airmen — a mission that was performed by slower, twin-rotor CH-46 “Frogs” in past years, Hobson said.
“The problem is that (CH-46s) go slow and, because of that, they are in the target area and exposed to surface fire a lot longer,” he said.
The speed of the Ospreys means they can be escorted by F-18s, which fly too fast to follow a CH-46. The Ospreys can also range farther because, unlike CH-46s, they can refuel in flight, he said.
“It can go much deeper into enemy territory,” Hobson said.
Which Version....Marine or Air Force.....or some combination of the two?
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CV-22s Under Fire in South Sudan
American Aircraft Are Attacked in South Sudan
By MICHAEL R.GORDON
Published December 21, 2013 WASHINGTON— United States aircraft flying into a heavily contested region of South Sudanto evacuate American citizens were attacked on Saturday and forced to turn back without completing the mission, American officials said. Four service members were wounded, one seriously.
South Sudan officials said the attack had been carried out by rebel forces.
President Obama had sent 45 American servicemen to South Sudan to “support the security of U.S. personnel and ourembassy,” he said on Thursday. Previous evacuation flights had been organized in Juba, the capital, but the aborted mission on Saturday appeared to be the first into rebel-held territory.
The military sent three CV-22Ospreys — tilt-rotor aircraft that can fly like an airplane and land like a helicopter — to evacuate American citizens from a UnitedNations compound in Bor, the capital of Jonglei State. The United States has not said how many Americans were there or whether they were in immediate danger.
As the aircraft approached the town,“they were fired on by small-arms fire by unknown forces,” the military said in a statement. All three aircraft were damaged.
Afterward, the mission was aborted and the Ospreys flew about 500 miles to Entebbe, Uganda. One United States service member was seriously wounded and taken to Nairobi,Kenya, where he was said to be in surgery on Saturday evening. Three others were reported to have minor injuries, American officials said.
As South Sudan has been racked by attacks, there have been mounting concerns about the plight of 35,000 civilians who have sought sanctuary at United Nations peace keeping bases in the country. Some 14,000 civilians are reported to have sought refuge at a base in Bor that is surrounded by 2,000 armed youths, spurring fears that the base may be overrun and the lives of aid workers there threatened.
American officials had little to say about the plight of the civilians remaining at the United Nations compound,including Americans.
On Friday night, Secretary of State John Kerry issued a statement saying that he had called Salva Kiir, the president of South Sudan, to urge him to “protect all South Sudanese citizens and work toward reconciliation.”
“Now is the time for South Sudan’s leaders to rein in armed groups under their control, immediately cease attacks on civilians and end the chain of retributive violence between different ethnic and political groups,” Mr. Kerry said in his statement. “The violence must stop, the dialogue must intensify.”
To encourage such efforts, Donald E.Booth, the United States’ special envoy for Sudan and South Sudan, left for the region on Friday.
Bor is in an especially violent region that is no longer controlled by government forces, according to Col.Philip Aguer, a spokesman for the South Sudan military.
President Kiir, a member of the Dinka ethnic group, has attributed the violence to an attempted coup by a former vice president, Riek Machar, who is a member of the rival Nuer ethnic group.
Earlier this week, Mr. Obama sent troops to protect the American embassy in Juba. The United States has also organized flights to evacuate American citizens from the capital, as have European nations.
But thousands of civilians remain at risk, as do United Nations peace keepers. The danger was underscored by an attack on Thursday in which 2,000 armed youths of Nuer ethnicity overran a base in the town of Akobo, killing Dinka civilians and two Indian peace keepers who tried to protect them.
Hilde F. Johnson, the top UnitedNations official in the country, said in a written statement, “I deplore this unjustified and unwarranted attack on the United Nations Mission base in Akobo, killing peace keepers that were here to protect civilians and serve the people of South Sudan.”
The United Nations peace keeping force in the country is formally known as the United Nations Mission in South Sudan, or Unmiss. It has about 6,800 soldiers and 700 police officers.
The United State Africa Command has responsibility for the region. It issued a terse statement Saturday morning on the attempted evacuation at Bor.
“We can confirm that three U.S.service members were injured today from gunfire directed at their aircraft in South Sudan,” the statement said. “The aircraft was participating in a mission to evacuate American citizens in Bor. After receiving fire from the ground while approaching the site, the aircraft diverted to an airfield outside the country and aborted the mission. The injured troops are being treated for their wounds.”
Isma’il Kushkush contributed reporting fromKhartoum, Sudan.
By MICHAEL R.GORDON
Published December 21, 2013 WASHINGTON— United States aircraft flying into a heavily contested region of South Sudanto evacuate American citizens were attacked on Saturday and forced to turn back without completing the mission, American officials said. Four service members were wounded, one seriously.
South Sudan officials said the attack had been carried out by rebel forces.
President Obama had sent 45 American servicemen to South Sudan to “support the security of U.S. personnel and ourembassy,” he said on Thursday. Previous evacuation flights had been organized in Juba, the capital, but the aborted mission on Saturday appeared to be the first into rebel-held territory.
The military sent three CV-22Ospreys — tilt-rotor aircraft that can fly like an airplane and land like a helicopter — to evacuate American citizens from a UnitedNations compound in Bor, the capital of Jonglei State. The United States has not said how many Americans were there or whether they were in immediate danger.
As the aircraft approached the town,“they were fired on by small-arms fire by unknown forces,” the military said in a statement. All three aircraft were damaged.
Afterward, the mission was aborted and the Ospreys flew about 500 miles to Entebbe, Uganda. One United States service member was seriously wounded and taken to Nairobi,Kenya, where he was said to be in surgery on Saturday evening. Three others were reported to have minor injuries, American officials said.
As South Sudan has been racked by attacks, there have been mounting concerns about the plight of 35,000 civilians who have sought sanctuary at United Nations peace keeping bases in the country. Some 14,000 civilians are reported to have sought refuge at a base in Bor that is surrounded by 2,000 armed youths, spurring fears that the base may be overrun and the lives of aid workers there threatened.
American officials had little to say about the plight of the civilians remaining at the United Nations compound,including Americans.
On Friday night, Secretary of State John Kerry issued a statement saying that he had called Salva Kiir, the president of South Sudan, to urge him to “protect all South Sudanese citizens and work toward reconciliation.”
“Now is the time for South Sudan’s leaders to rein in armed groups under their control, immediately cease attacks on civilians and end the chain of retributive violence between different ethnic and political groups,” Mr. Kerry said in his statement. “The violence must stop, the dialogue must intensify.”
To encourage such efforts, Donald E.Booth, the United States’ special envoy for Sudan and South Sudan, left for the region on Friday.
Bor is in an especially violent region that is no longer controlled by government forces, according to Col.Philip Aguer, a spokesman for the South Sudan military.
President Kiir, a member of the Dinka ethnic group, has attributed the violence to an attempted coup by a former vice president, Riek Machar, who is a member of the rival Nuer ethnic group.
Earlier this week, Mr. Obama sent troops to protect the American embassy in Juba. The United States has also organized flights to evacuate American citizens from the capital, as have European nations.
But thousands of civilians remain at risk, as do United Nations peace keepers. The danger was underscored by an attack on Thursday in which 2,000 armed youths of Nuer ethnicity overran a base in the town of Akobo, killing Dinka civilians and two Indian peace keepers who tried to protect them.
Hilde F. Johnson, the top UnitedNations official in the country, said in a written statement, “I deplore this unjustified and unwarranted attack on the United Nations Mission base in Akobo, killing peace keepers that were here to protect civilians and serve the people of South Sudan.”
The United Nations peace keeping force in the country is formally known as the United Nations Mission in South Sudan, or Unmiss. It has about 6,800 soldiers and 700 police officers.
The United State Africa Command has responsibility for the region. It issued a terse statement Saturday morning on the attempted evacuation at Bor.
“We can confirm that three U.S.service members were injured today from gunfire directed at their aircraft in South Sudan,” the statement said. “The aircraft was participating in a mission to evacuate American citizens in Bor. After receiving fire from the ground while approaching the site, the aircraft diverted to an airfield outside the country and aborted the mission. The injured troops are being treated for their wounds.”
Isma’il Kushkush contributed reporting fromKhartoum, Sudan.
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The Japanese Self-Defense Forces are looking at buying 17 Ospreys, according to reports in major Japanese newspapers, which detail a five-year defense build-up that Japan’s cabinet is scheduled to vote on Tuesday.
The program, valued at 24.67 trillion yen ($238 million)
The program, valued at 24.67 trillion yen ($238 million)
Lapp
If it were 12 Billion $ per Osprey that would be racking the bucks in. That would be getting into Canadian S-92/Cyclone money, except these will be delivered.
The Sultan
If it were 12 Billion $ per Osprey that would be racking the bucks in. That would be getting into Canadian S-92/Cyclone money, except these will be delivered.
The Sultan
The program, valued at 24.67 trillion yen ($238 million), includes new tanks, unmanned aircraft, aerial refuelers, submarines, destroyers and amphibious vehicles that could ferry ground troops ashore on remote islands, according to media reports.