Options for a service dropout!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hampshire
Age: 37
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Options for a service dropout!
The good ladies and gentlemen of PPRuNe,
I suspect that several people on this forum are fully aware of the process, who I am, and what has happened to me today. For the majority who don't, until this morning I was on very short finals for Army wings, this afternoon I’m not.
What has happened is painful, but there is nothing that can be done about it now. Had I been given my time again there are several things I would have done differently, but isn’t hindsight always 20/20?
The service has acted in its own best interests and to be perfectly honest I can hardly blame the system or the people involved. They have done everything in their power for me and I’ve had more than my three strikes, I simply have to come to terms with the sickening fact that some people are just not cut out for a career in Army Aviation.
While my brain is in the process of digesting this rather heart breaking news I would like to open up the floor to vast experience available here and ask "What are my options?".
I am first and foremost a soldier and remain cognisant of the fact that there are several options (not to mention a return of service) for me still in the Army. With that in mind, what I would like to know is centred around the idea of still wanting to fly, either in a few months, a year or two, or after a full career in the Army.
The facts and figures are as follows: I’m 25, a non graduate, not currently in a financial position to pay for a CPL outright (although a PPL would be relatively straightforward to pick up) and at this stage I am open to any aspect of aviation where I get to stay in (or rather get back to) a cockpit; rotary, police helicopter, heli-med, coastguard, charter, fixed wing, business jet, airline… …hot air balloon…
At the moment my main interest is in looking for organisations that are able to develop my hours into civilian licences in exchange for a return of service. I have been trawling the “So you want to be a helicopter pilot” thread for a few weeks while this decision has been brewing, but there seems to be little info on the possibilities of a time/licence exchange.
Currently sitting on 253 hours total with the about a fifth of that being single engine fixed wing piston (Grob 115e), and the remainder rotary wing single engine turbine (AS350BB). The reason for my withdrawal from the course (or the foremost reason at least) was repeated failure during the tactics phase of my course. For all it matters, on a purely flying slant, I’m actually not a bad pair of hands.
I also hold a restricted white IF rating on the AS350 and I’ve passed all the groundschool exams required to qualify.
I’m a determined individual and regardless of where my life in a green suit may take me, flying is close to my heart and one day near or far, I will get back in the air.
Thanks for your time, and all the best.
I suspect that several people on this forum are fully aware of the process, who I am, and what has happened to me today. For the majority who don't, until this morning I was on very short finals for Army wings, this afternoon I’m not.
What has happened is painful, but there is nothing that can be done about it now. Had I been given my time again there are several things I would have done differently, but isn’t hindsight always 20/20?
The service has acted in its own best interests and to be perfectly honest I can hardly blame the system or the people involved. They have done everything in their power for me and I’ve had more than my three strikes, I simply have to come to terms with the sickening fact that some people are just not cut out for a career in Army Aviation.
While my brain is in the process of digesting this rather heart breaking news I would like to open up the floor to vast experience available here and ask "What are my options?".
I am first and foremost a soldier and remain cognisant of the fact that there are several options (not to mention a return of service) for me still in the Army. With that in mind, what I would like to know is centred around the idea of still wanting to fly, either in a few months, a year or two, or after a full career in the Army.
The facts and figures are as follows: I’m 25, a non graduate, not currently in a financial position to pay for a CPL outright (although a PPL would be relatively straightforward to pick up) and at this stage I am open to any aspect of aviation where I get to stay in (or rather get back to) a cockpit; rotary, police helicopter, heli-med, coastguard, charter, fixed wing, business jet, airline… …hot air balloon…
At the moment my main interest is in looking for organisations that are able to develop my hours into civilian licences in exchange for a return of service. I have been trawling the “So you want to be a helicopter pilot” thread for a few weeks while this decision has been brewing, but there seems to be little info on the possibilities of a time/licence exchange.
Currently sitting on 253 hours total with the about a fifth of that being single engine fixed wing piston (Grob 115e), and the remainder rotary wing single engine turbine (AS350BB). The reason for my withdrawal from the course (or the foremost reason at least) was repeated failure during the tactics phase of my course. For all it matters, on a purely flying slant, I’m actually not a bad pair of hands.
I also hold a restricted white IF rating on the AS350 and I’ve passed all the groundschool exams required to qualify.
I’m a determined individual and regardless of where my life in a green suit may take me, flying is close to my heart and one day near or far, I will get back in the air.
Thanks for your time, and all the best.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: On the move...
Age: 58
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CE, I'm not from England, so no direct advice. I actually work within close proximity to an Army Aviation school in Australia and we often have scrubs coming to us with a similar question.
My advice is to do what they do, drop in to the local flight schools and make inquiries face to face. In the civil (GA) world, networking is the key. Not what you know, but who... Case in point, I was a low hour pilot who was looking for flying work and was also a full time policeman. Driving/patrolling around my rural beat I came across the owner of a Hughes 500 working on his boundary and we got chatting. I had previously met him at the flight school and the next thing he is trying to talk me into doing an endorsement on the 500 and was only going to charge me fuel costs. I didn't argue. From there I got a lot more turbine time and that later led to full time flying job. The time I spent in the 500 was mostly private flying and not work related, but as a PPL you will stay current and met some fun people along the way.
So, drop into your local schools.
This must be a difficult time for you and in spite of that you appear to have conducted yourself very professionally and reacted well. Good job, keep it up. It speaks volumes about your character and that will come through when you talk to others. Remember that each meeting is a possible impromptu interview.
Good luck.
My advice is to do what they do, drop in to the local flight schools and make inquiries face to face. In the civil (GA) world, networking is the key. Not what you know, but who... Case in point, I was a low hour pilot who was looking for flying work and was also a full time policeman. Driving/patrolling around my rural beat I came across the owner of a Hughes 500 working on his boundary and we got chatting. I had previously met him at the flight school and the next thing he is trying to talk me into doing an endorsement on the 500 and was only going to charge me fuel costs. I didn't argue. From there I got a lot more turbine time and that later led to full time flying job. The time I spent in the 500 was mostly private flying and not work related, but as a PPL you will stay current and met some fun people along the way.
So, drop into your local schools.
This must be a difficult time for you and in spite of that you appear to have conducted yourself very professionally and reacted well. Good job, keep it up. It speaks volumes about your character and that will come through when you talk to others. Remember that each meeting is a possible impromptu interview.
Good luck.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chickeneagle,
Sorry it didn't work out for you dude, good to hear you aren't letting it get you down, says a lot for your character... Not sure what your next step should be but for any of the emergency service jobs you mention (police, HEMS, coastguard etc) loads of experience is required.... I have been flying HEMS for a year or so now and with over 3000 hrs rotary total I wouldn't say I'm regarded as experienced, just fairly lucky to be in the job.
What CYHeli says re networking is correct in the UK, I got my first real commercial job through a recommendation from a friend so the more people you can get to know in the industry the better. My suggestion would be to go FW airlines when you get out of the mob and take it from there, you can always change to rotary further down the line.
Good luck!
BC
Sorry it didn't work out for you dude, good to hear you aren't letting it get you down, says a lot for your character... Not sure what your next step should be but for any of the emergency service jobs you mention (police, HEMS, coastguard etc) loads of experience is required.... I have been flying HEMS for a year or so now and with over 3000 hrs rotary total I wouldn't say I'm regarded as experienced, just fairly lucky to be in the job.
What CYHeli says re networking is correct in the UK, I got my first real commercial job through a recommendation from a friend so the more people you can get to know in the industry the better. My suggestion would be to go FW airlines when you get out of the mob and take it from there, you can always change to rotary further down the line.
Good luck!
BC
With about 200 hrs turbine helicopter you should be able to get a CPL relatively easily, shouldn't you? I think it's about 105 hrs all up in Australia to get one, along with the appropriate subject passes. Sling and winch would have been included in your Army flying, I'd expect? Low flying as well, of course.
Get on to your flying regulator (CAA for you guys? Not sure) and see what you're entitled to as far as recognition of prior experience goes. See a reputable flying school and get the CFI to work out a transition plan of some sort to get you up to speed and get your licences and ratings good to go.
Then you can look into getting jobs. Over here you need about 1000 hrs to get a turbine job (insurance issues for the employer) but again, see what's about. As part of your CPL transition to the civil world, maybe you can get Robbie R22 and R44 endorsements to give you an entry into those job avenues.
Things like a dangerous goods handling certificate are often a requirement, but are easy to get. You probably have HUET already? A lot of employers want that.
Anyway, obviously get a CPL if you want to fly for money. Good luck to you.
Get on to your flying regulator (CAA for you guys? Not sure) and see what you're entitled to as far as recognition of prior experience goes. See a reputable flying school and get the CFI to work out a transition plan of some sort to get you up to speed and get your licences and ratings good to go.
Then you can look into getting jobs. Over here you need about 1000 hrs to get a turbine job (insurance issues for the employer) but again, see what's about. As part of your CPL transition to the civil world, maybe you can get Robbie R22 and R44 endorsements to give you an entry into those job avenues.
Things like a dangerous goods handling certificate are often a requirement, but are easy to get. You probably have HUET already? A lot of employers want that.
Anyway, obviously get a CPL if you want to fly for money. Good luck to you.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Back in the UK
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Chickeneagle,
Sorry to hear about your situation.
First check out the LASORs book on the CAA website detailing the exact requirements for PPL, CPL, ATPL, etc. Also check out the requirements for service pilots in LASORS.
LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | About the CAA
With your hours you have enough for a JAR CPL(H) and you might want to check out what a restricted white IF rating will get you in the civil world. That should also be in LASORS too. I'm not an ex-service pilot so can't tell you exactly.
With low hours you are then faced with the age old dilemma of needing experience to get the job, needing the job to get the experience.
CHC and Bristows are recruiting right now so if you get an IR this summer you could get a job on the North Sea, if you wanted that. Apart from that network yourself. Its a small world and all about who you know.
Hope that helps.
Sorry to hear about your situation.
First check out the LASORs book on the CAA website detailing the exact requirements for PPL, CPL, ATPL, etc. Also check out the requirements for service pilots in LASORS.
LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | About the CAA
With your hours you have enough for a JAR CPL(H) and you might want to check out what a restricted white IF rating will get you in the civil world. That should also be in LASORS too. I'm not an ex-service pilot so can't tell you exactly.
With low hours you are then faced with the age old dilemma of needing experience to get the job, needing the job to get the experience.
CHC and Bristows are recruiting right now so if you get an IR this summer you could get a job on the North Sea, if you wanted that. Apart from that network yourself. Its a small world and all about who you know.
Hope that helps.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,094
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason for my withdrawal from the course (or the foremost reason at least) was repeated failure during the tactics phase of my course. For all it matters, on a purely flying slant, I’m actually not a bad pair of hands.
Be aware of your limitations and pick your path accordingly, as your flying experience grows the limitations may eventually disappear. When you have your PPL you could consider an instructors rating and whilst still in the Army get around local flying clubs. It would be a very long shot but it might be worth finding out if the CAA will consider you as having completed a military flying course, strictly from the handling point of view,sufficient for a CPL or at least a major credit to wards the total hours required, then you would need to do all the CPL writtens. Successful candidates that come via the approved course at approved schools are only tested on their flying ability and civilian writtens. I imagine the CAA would need something in writing from the Army though!
Best of luck, whatever you decide.
Last edited by parabellum; 4th Jun 2012 at 10:10.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: all over?
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sure it is a bit of a tough time, but look for the positive and it may well work out well in the end. If I were in your shoes, I would continue with your SSC and continue with your next regiment of choice. Do your stint as a platoon/troop commander and have a great time doing it. Do every course/exped/det you can and make the most of the social side. You will never experience better. In the mean time, sort out you PPL and maybe do a little hours building or just keep current. Use you time to speak to a couple of schools and research for the future. Get the CPL done as soon as possible. Will be very straight forward as you already have the hours. Save the IR for a little later, as you near the end of your Commission. In your next 3 years keep an eye on the job market, and if you can make a few contacts all the better. Plenty of co-pilots have been hired into the North Sea with just 200hrs of civil training such as Bristow Academy or similar. You have many options both fixed wing and rotary. Many have left the Army in the past with little or no flyiing experience and gone on to have second careers as airline pilots. Sponsored cadet schemes will look very favourably on your background I suspect. Also try and join a flying club if you can. Fixed wing or rotary. You may find you can join one of the RAF flying clubs if you are close enough. This will get you cheap cessna flying and good hours building, and it will all help with making contacts - which is all important.
Your training will be favourably viewed by any future employer, as will your non-flying experience in the army. As you near your end of service (approx 3 years) start applying to all the offshore operators and look at the fixed wing sponsorship schemes. Get an IR and increase the amount of flying you are doing. You should get some sort resettlement package that will help with this. Do not limit yourself to the UK when job searching. Often the touring positions in less desirable spots are good entry. This will help you build hours quickly then and get a few type ratings and life will get easier. Also before you commit too much financially, get your class 1 medical sorted out. Any surprises here might change your options.
In my opinion this will all give you the best of both worlds. You will still have a meaningful Army career and get a lot out of it. You will get over the initial disappointment and distance yourself somewhat from being just someone who got "chopped" and will have a more varied experience to offer. You will still be very young and offer a good return of investment to an employer.
Good luck, and actually you still have a very interesting and exciting time ahead. Not the one you originally planned on but just as interesting, if not more so.
Your training will be favourably viewed by any future employer, as will your non-flying experience in the army. As you near your end of service (approx 3 years) start applying to all the offshore operators and look at the fixed wing sponsorship schemes. Get an IR and increase the amount of flying you are doing. You should get some sort resettlement package that will help with this. Do not limit yourself to the UK when job searching. Often the touring positions in less desirable spots are good entry. This will help you build hours quickly then and get a few type ratings and life will get easier. Also before you commit too much financially, get your class 1 medical sorted out. Any surprises here might change your options.
In my opinion this will all give you the best of both worlds. You will still have a meaningful Army career and get a lot out of it. You will get over the initial disappointment and distance yourself somewhat from being just someone who got "chopped" and will have a more varied experience to offer. You will still be very young and offer a good return of investment to an employer.
Good luck, and actually you still have a very interesting and exciting time ahead. Not the one you originally planned on but just as interesting, if not more so.
Last edited by Horror box; 4th Jun 2012 at 13:19.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
chickeneagle,
The previous threads seem to me to be sensible contributions. I am just a little out of date, but the imminent change of rules to EASA may make it more difficult for you to acquire civi-licences As of 1 July this year, the UK CAA have decided that they will move to EASA licensing. I used to be up to speed but as I am no longer involved in flying training and close to retirement age, I have not wasted many brain cells on trying to work out what the new EASA rules mean. [In my circumstances it feels like too much effort].
The point though is that as of 1st July, ALL the rules will change [LASORS will be withdrawn]. In particular, I believe some routes for military QSPs will not exist and the scope for the UK CAA to make decisions on personal cases will be limited by the new, inflexible and more onerous EASA rules.
It may be worth your while taking URGENT advice from a good current CFI of a UK commercial helicopter flying school. It might be worth your while to get something done ASAP.
The previous threads seem to me to be sensible contributions. I am just a little out of date, but the imminent change of rules to EASA may make it more difficult for you to acquire civi-licences As of 1 July this year, the UK CAA have decided that they will move to EASA licensing. I used to be up to speed but as I am no longer involved in flying training and close to retirement age, I have not wasted many brain cells on trying to work out what the new EASA rules mean. [In my circumstances it feels like too much effort].
The point though is that as of 1st July, ALL the rules will change [LASORS will be withdrawn]. In particular, I believe some routes for military QSPs will not exist and the scope for the UK CAA to make decisions on personal cases will be limited by the new, inflexible and more onerous EASA rules.
It may be worth your while taking URGENT advice from a good current CFI of a UK commercial helicopter flying school. It might be worth your while to get something done ASAP.
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I stand corrected/updated, (but even more sure I will be well out of it soon.................)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chickeneagle.
I hate to say it, but you are not going to get much out of the CAA beyond credit for your hours and perhaps an easy PPL maybe.
Even under the old rules (see Lasors flow chart Section D appendix I), your military time would not get you a CPL as you need to be front line with 2000 hrs 1500 P1, current and in date for a standards ride, and those rules are gone since March, so now nothing even if you qualified, which you don't on all counts unfortunately.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is no short cut there.
Don't give up though, you may have to do it the hard way, that's all.
I hate to say it, but you are not going to get much out of the CAA beyond credit for your hours and perhaps an easy PPL maybe.
Even under the old rules (see Lasors flow chart Section D appendix I), your military time would not get you a CPL as you need to be front line with 2000 hrs 1500 P1, current and in date for a standards ride, and those rules are gone since March, so now nothing even if you qualified, which you don't on all counts unfortunately.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is no short cut there.
Don't give up though, you may have to do it the hard way, that's all.
Last edited by Tourist; 4th Jun 2012 at 16:01.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Chickeneagle,
Sorry to hear about your circumstances and I wish you all the very best.
Lots of good advice here and further to any credits for the training you have already completed, you may also be eligible for OU Credit Transfers toward a future OU qualification Army Air Corps | Credit Transfer | Open University
Army Elementary Flying Training Course (Defence Elementary Flying Training School) | Credit Transfer | Open University
Sorry to hear about your circumstances and I wish you all the very best.
Lots of good advice here and further to any credits for the training you have already completed, you may also be eligible for OU Credit Transfers toward a future OU qualification Army Air Corps | Credit Transfer | Open University
Army Elementary Flying Training Course (Defence Elementary Flying Training School) | Credit Transfer | Open University
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 4th Jun 2012 at 16:57.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hampshire
Age: 37
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies for the long gap, I have been taking full advantage of the leave offered to be to figure out what I want to be when I grow up... The short answer still centres around a turbine of some description.
Thank you all so very much for taking the time to offer your words of wisdom. I have been making some enquiries of my own with people I know in various parts of the industry (few as you can imagine). Now with what you have clubbed together, I can have a sensible sit-down and investigate the several avenues that have been suggested / warned against either on this thread or the PM's many of you have sent.
I have a sneaky suspicion that after a few years ‘in’ to build up a bit of capital and enjoy the experience; I will aim to head down the commercially more viable fixed wing route to keep me in beer / helicopter tokens with the hope that the market becomes one more advantageous to rotary drivers than it currently seems to be.
As those of you who posted cared enough to respond, I’ll let you know what happens in the next few weeks!
Again, thank you.
Thank you all so very much for taking the time to offer your words of wisdom. I have been making some enquiries of my own with people I know in various parts of the industry (few as you can imagine). Now with what you have clubbed together, I can have a sensible sit-down and investigate the several avenues that have been suggested / warned against either on this thread or the PM's many of you have sent.
I have a sneaky suspicion that after a few years ‘in’ to build up a bit of capital and enjoy the experience; I will aim to head down the commercially more viable fixed wing route to keep me in beer / helicopter tokens with the hope that the market becomes one more advantageous to rotary drivers than it currently seems to be.
As those of you who posted cared enough to respond, I’ll let you know what happens in the next few weeks!
Again, thank you.
