Vigili del Fuoco winching
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Vigili del Fuoco winching
Holidaymakers from France, Italy, Germany and Britain were forced to flee the 1,500-cabin Costa Concordia in lifeboats when it hit a reef less than two hours after leaving port.
Some leapt overboard and swam to shore as the ship started to sink into the waters near the island of Giglio, off the Tuscan coast.
Francesco Paolillo, the coastguard spokesman, said that at least three bodies were retrieved from the sea and at least three more were feared dead.
Pregnant women and young children were among the 3,200 passengers and 1,000 crew on board.
Helicopters airlifted to safety around 50 people who were trapped on board.
Some leapt overboard and swam to shore as the ship started to sink into the waters near the island of Giglio, off the Tuscan coast.
Francesco Paolillo, the coastguard spokesman, said that at least three bodies were retrieved from the sea and at least three more were feared dead.
Pregnant women and young children were among the 3,200 passengers and 1,000 crew on board.
Helicopters airlifted to safety around 50 people who were trapped on board.
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Vigili del Fuoco winching
Has nobody else noticed the Italian Bell 412 Regn YF 57 winching over the stricken cruise ship!
What on earth is he doing at about 300 feet with a crewman/survivor on the winch?
Maybe still doing his primary job of checking for fires on the mainland?
Trog
What on earth is he doing at about 300 feet with a crewman/survivor on the winch?
Maybe still doing his primary job of checking for fires on the mainland?
Trog
Yep saw that, and reckoned the Guardia di Costiera are probably there somewhere with their AB412 and newish AW139 around 
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Vie sans le bon sens mon cher!
They're trying to save lives.
Crab - where are you when you are needed?
Trog
p.s. day off today - no lives saved!
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Not sure which version of 412 they are flying but even an EP would struggle to be flyaway. If you then look at the winching supplement to the flight manual - cant remember what it was called but something like class d winching supplement - it gave some extremely high heights depending on your AUW. I suspect they have gone in high to keep flyaway, downwash clear of deck crew (who must also be perched on a precarious place). I suspect he had his reasons and at the end of the day he does have a high speed winch fitted and the chances of a Double engine failure or tail failure are about 10 to the minus well, a lot anyway. So.... From an armchair near you etc etc
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REMF
but even an EP would struggle to be flyaway.
Even an SP would have few problems even with high fuel state with a standard 4 man crew (9800 lbs or thereabouts with 1800lbs fuel)
My point sitting in my day-off armchair was why not descend clear of the hull into wind over the water as you winch in? Like we used to do from the Whirlwind HAS 7 onwards!
Trog
It would be interesting to know what sort of service the pilot was providing to the winchop/winchman hovering at 300' and what he was using for hover references.
There is no international standard for helicopter SAR and different operators have different priorities and practices.
There is no international standard for helicopter SAR and different operators have different priorities and practices.
Remarkably there are operators around the world who don't always appreciate the dangers of dropping the load from height over a hard surface. I agree that what we were taught (move out and down, overwater) seems a preferred method, but there could be a downwash issue (loose inflatables still tethered to the hull seen in other photos) or a wind issue. Certainly I wouldn't be getting overly concerned with the flyaway aspect, the 412 is a very capable machine.
Nonetheless, it's not our position to judge without knowing the facts behind the pilot and crew's decision.
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Mmmm ...
Have to agree with John ... thats only about 120' over ship structure and they appear to be using a HI line as well .... so they had a 'thought out' plan .. and whats more it worked!
Have to agree with John ... thats only about 120' over ship structure and they appear to be using a HI line as well .... so they had a 'thought out' plan .. and whats more it worked!
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Apologies
Didn't see the high line on the BBC shots so maybe he was over the water during the recovery.
Still can't see any masts or aerials sticking out of the hull but once again photographic perspective may be to blame.
He still seems awfully high at 120 feet plus hull height (reason for posting the question) and still a long way to fall!
Trog (Grumpy Old Man?)
Still can't see any masts or aerials sticking out of the hull but once again photographic perspective may be to blame.
He still seems awfully high at 120 feet plus hull height (reason for posting the question) and still a long way to fall!
Trog (Grumpy Old Man?)
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Hey, it's horses for courses - some operators do things one way, others do it another. For example:
Some years ago I had the good fortune to be able to fly a B412 operated by a certain European military air arm. The pilot, an experienced instructor, demonstrated a cliff winching scenario in the mountains, right-hand side to the cliff. On completion of the demo, and still in position, he decided that we needed to depart in the opposite direction to that in which we were pointing; he then carried out a pedal turn through 180 degrees TO THE RIGHT...
...before flying away. He also made absolutely no safety calls (ie 'Safe SE / Flyaway / Committed') during the flight.
After the flight I asked him specifically about safety and actions in the event of an engine failure, making specific reference to the points above. His response was that the P&W Twinpac engines on a B412 simply didn't fail and were extremely reliable. He stated that was far more likely that the tail rotor would fail, and there was very little that you could do to mitigate that, so his unit didn't worry too much about the reliable engines.
An interesting attitude, especially as JJ had an engine failure on a SARTU B412 soon afterwards.
The winchman also connected directly to the hook without a QRF in between, there was no PLB or survival equipment of any kind in the aircraft, I received no pre-flight safety briefing (although it was requested) and there was no Flight Following service. The unit did, however, carry out successful rescues. Just not how I would do it.
E99
Some years ago I had the good fortune to be able to fly a B412 operated by a certain European military air arm. The pilot, an experienced instructor, demonstrated a cliff winching scenario in the mountains, right-hand side to the cliff. On completion of the demo, and still in position, he decided that we needed to depart in the opposite direction to that in which we were pointing; he then carried out a pedal turn through 180 degrees TO THE RIGHT...
...before flying away. He also made absolutely no safety calls (ie 'Safe SE / Flyaway / Committed') during the flight.After the flight I asked him specifically about safety and actions in the event of an engine failure, making specific reference to the points above. His response was that the P&W Twinpac engines on a B412 simply didn't fail and were extremely reliable. He stated that was far more likely that the tail rotor would fail, and there was very little that you could do to mitigate that, so his unit didn't worry too much about the reliable engines.
An interesting attitude, especially as JJ had an engine failure on a SARTU B412 soon afterwards.
The winchman also connected directly to the hook without a QRF in between, there was no PLB or survival equipment of any kind in the aircraft, I received no pre-flight safety briefing (although it was requested) and there was no Flight Following service. The unit did, however, carry out successful rescues. Just not how I would do it.
E99
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Mmmm ...
explo99 ... you said ...
he then carried out a pedal turn through 180 degrees TO THE RIGHT......before flying away.
I seem to have missed something ... what exactly is wrong with a RH pedal turn ....
Cheers
explo99 ... you said ...
he then carried out a pedal turn through 180 degrees TO THE RIGHT......before flying away.
I seem to have missed something ... what exactly is wrong with a RH pedal turn ....
Cheers
Spinwing - I think his point is that when winching RH side on there was a flyaway option for the aircraft in the event of and engine failure and when ready to depart from LH side on the same - however and engine failure during the 180 yaw right, whilst still tucked up close to the cliff, didn't leave much of a flyaway option especially when nose on to the cliff.
We all hope the reliability of the engines means we won't be embarrassed but doing that on a training sortie seems like tempting fate. I'm not saying you don't have to take risks sometimes but this outfit seem to have a pretty cavalier attitude to safety across the board - different strokes for different folks.
We all hope the reliability of the engines means we won't be embarrassed but doing that on a training sortie seems like tempting fate. I'm not saying you don't have to take risks sometimes but this outfit seem to have a pretty cavalier attitude to safety across the board - different strokes for different folks.
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I seem to have missed something ... what exactly is wrong with a RH pedal turn ....
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What's wrong with...
...a RH pedal turn? Nothing. Except when that means that you ignore the 180 degrees of free space to your left and choose instead to fill your windscreen with rock face, removing any option of a) a flyaway if a donk stops or b) autorotation if you have a TR problem (or SE fail in a single). At least, I suppose, you reduce your hover Tq in a 412 by using right pedal to carry out the turn. Quite apart from that, it ignores the obvious (to me) option of gaining forward airspeed to reduce your Tq requirement before turning.
Sorry mods, possible thread drift from 'Vigili del Fuoco winching' - but it's obvious, innit? If you have at least 2 safe options and 1 unsafe option, why choose the latter?
E99
Sorry mods, possible thread drift from 'Vigili del Fuoco winching' - but it's obvious, innit? If you have at least 2 safe options and 1 unsafe option, why choose the latter?
E99
Perhaps the height is to avoid blowing all the inflatable Liferafts about, many of which were still attached to that side of the Hull, and potentially causing further injuries?