Vigili del Fuoco winching
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: sans frontieres
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my humble experience, there could be a number of reasons for winching and operating at altitudes others wonder about. Could be a paramedic below working on another survivor or someone requested less noise. Who knows?.........apparently not us. Could be a downwash issue or someone below on unstable surface perhaps. OR some expert may have told the pilot to never ever ever winch below x feet. Could even be the guys first winch or his thousandth and that's the way that hoist cycle had to be done on the day.
Good effort for a prick of a task anyway.
DD
Good effort for a prick of a task anyway.
DD
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And there was I, hoping that this thread would stick to constructive discussion without degenerating...
Having seen TV footage of the rescuers having to use ropes and ascenders to negotiate the smooth deck that would normally be horizontal, I imagine that rotor wash would be fairly unwelcome...perhaps hence the height in the original pics. Yeah, a high winch has its risks, but to my mind these are mitigated by such factors as a good flyaway and a modern electrical hoist with high winching speed, shock clutch and reliable brake. Also I don't think that references would have been much of a problem for the pilot...
E99
Having seen TV footage of the rescuers having to use ropes and ascenders to negotiate the smooth deck that would normally be horizontal, I imagine that rotor wash would be fairly unwelcome...perhaps hence the height in the original pics. Yeah, a high winch has its risks, but to my mind these are mitigated by such factors as a good flyaway and a modern electrical hoist with high winching speed, shock clutch and reliable brake. Also I don't think that references would have been much of a problem for the pilot...
E99
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Out of Africa
Age: 70
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear DD
Not the sort of reply that would be expected from someone who wrote on 18th February 2009 at 01:06
Trog
p.s. just joking - was bored last week - searching for bodies today has improved mood dramatically!
Sounds like an apology for poor manners might be in order back a few posts. People should be able to place objective comment on the page without being belittled or ridiculed....moderators?
Trogp.s. just joking - was bored last week - searching for bodies today has improved mood dramatically!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lost and Legless somewhere in LaLaLand
Age: 77
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my humble experience,
If he did read pprune it would not be to learn from you "mate".
All due respect
All due respect
Sorry if this is off thread and a well done to all those involved in the rescue, some of whom are obviously professional in this field and others experienced, well-meaning amateurs doing their best.
The Italian divers have done a wonderful (and heroic) task - bravo
Trog .....and I thought all you professional SAR boys knew what they were doing ..... !!!!! Why not be big enough to say job well done , you would feel much better for it and get more respect from us "amateurs" !!!
Ps in my humble opinion ....
Ps in my humble opinion ....
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Out of Africa
Age: 70
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nigel - thank you
Nigel and all,
I did actually apologise way back when it was pointed out that they had a Hi-line deployed but probably not in a sincere or strong enough manner.
I agree that all the boys have been doing a great job and merely questioned why they were so F***ing high when there seemed to be no apparent reason for this from watching a news clip on the Beeb! There have been loads of (speculative) potential reasons for the very high hover which were not at all obvious from the short clip that I saw.
We can all get a little carried away when a Rescue scenario initially unfolds and the presence of TV cameras does little to calm the situation.
It doesn't matter how slim the chances of a catastrophic failure are if one actually occurs and it just seemed to me that the crewman and casualty were a hell of a long way up in the air once again "for no apparent (at the time)" reason.
I found a forgotten commendation in a box in my garage the other day from the UNHCR for assisting in the rescue of a bunch of Vietnamese boat people whose boat had overturned in Kuala Terengannu harbour mouth during a severe Monsoon storm in 1983. I was inbound with a full load from offshore and my contribution was to get my co-jo to deploy our liferafts then "steal" all the passenger life jackets from the 20 or so passengers in the back of my S61, inflate them and throw them to the various bodies in the water once again from a very high hover to minimise downwash with very dubious power reserves. I would have been crucified today for even getting involved with a ship full of Oil Company pax but it seemed like a good idea at the time. I am sure some old Fart like me (now) would have pointed out the error of my ways if PPrune (or even mobile phones) had existed at the time.
Once again - sincerely well done to all the crews!
Trog
I did actually apologise way back when it was pointed out that they had a Hi-line deployed but probably not in a sincere or strong enough manner.
I agree that all the boys have been doing a great job and merely questioned why they were so F***ing high when there seemed to be no apparent reason for this from watching a news clip on the Beeb! There have been loads of (speculative) potential reasons for the very high hover which were not at all obvious from the short clip that I saw.
We can all get a little carried away when a Rescue scenario initially unfolds and the presence of TV cameras does little to calm the situation.
It doesn't matter how slim the chances of a catastrophic failure are if one actually occurs and it just seemed to me that the crewman and casualty were a hell of a long way up in the air once again "for no apparent (at the time)" reason.
I found a forgotten commendation in a box in my garage the other day from the UNHCR for assisting in the rescue of a bunch of Vietnamese boat people whose boat had overturned in Kuala Terengannu harbour mouth during a severe Monsoon storm in 1983. I was inbound with a full load from offshore and my contribution was to get my co-jo to deploy our liferafts then "steal" all the passenger life jackets from the 20 or so passengers in the back of my S61, inflate them and throw them to the various bodies in the water once again from a very high hover to minimise downwash with very dubious power reserves. I would have been crucified today for even getting involved with a ship full of Oil Company pax but it seemed like a good idea at the time. I am sure some old Fart like me (now) would have pointed out the error of my ways if PPrune (or even mobile phones) had existed at the time.
Once again - sincerely well done to all the crews!
Trog
Thread Starter
From one thing to another, could one of you fine folks confirm whether an auto-hover feature is common with the AFCS in the 412 and, if so, how effective/helpful it is (if at all) during hi-line/general winch work?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Out of Africa
Age: 70
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shawbury 412 (Griffon)
Savoia,
Not a standard Civvy fit as I am sure you are aware and also not fitted to the FBS Shawbury Class D sim (unless fitted very recently)
Possibly a fit used by the RAF SAR Guys in Cyprus?
Crab?
Trog
Not a standard Civvy fit as I am sure you are aware and also not fitted to the FBS Shawbury Class D sim (unless fitted very recently)
Possibly a fit used by the RAF SAR Guys in Cyprus?
Crab?
Trog
Trog . Well put 
Nice story and i am sure you would do exactly the same again today regardless of new "rules". In a scenario like that i think the book goes out the window and you have to ask yourself if you can help without becoming a victim and causing more problems .....if you are 100% sure the answer is yes then you do it regardless and sleep at night ...
Nice story and i am sure you would do exactly the same again today regardless of new "rules". In a scenario like that i think the book goes out the window and you have to ask yourself if you can help without becoming a victim and causing more problems .....if you are 100% sure the answer is yes then you do it regardless and sleep at night ...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In The Trap, trapped.....
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some bunch of "experts" ! 300' ? 120' ? From what I guestimate by comparing the winchman to the distance on the wire; you either have a 12-15' crewman or the aircraft is hovering about 60-70' above the vessel. That may well be 120-150' amsl.
It remains that none of you are flying the machine and therefore do not have all the information that the pilot has based his decisions on. Nil wind, Full fuel, rotorwash, etc etc etc. If you are not there - then don't criticise. Give the crew some credit for doing the job.
P.
It remains that none of you are flying the machine and therefore do not have all the information that the pilot has based his decisions on. Nil wind, Full fuel, rotorwash, etc etc etc. If you are not there - then don't criticise. Give the crew some credit for doing the job.
P.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Middle East
Age: 69
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some criticisms about the winching and some positive comments, but the main thing I noticed was that in Italy a tired older model 412 is out there rescuing people with no evidence of any shiny new Agusta 139s. Are they all sitting waiting for tail rotor blades?
There has been a lot of criticism on this forum about 'cheap' companies using older model helicopters instead of the very expensive new models. When a person needs rescuing I am sure they will be very happy if a cranky old BO-105 or 206L shows up rather than waiting for a newer model that few can afford or are grounded due to technical issues.
There has been a lot of criticism on this forum about 'cheap' companies using older model helicopters instead of the very expensive new models. When a person needs rescuing I am sure they will be very happy if a cranky old BO-105 or 206L shows up rather than waiting for a newer model that few can afford or are grounded due to technical issues.
Last edited by HueyDog; 20th Jan 2012 at 08:06.