UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KK - very well put about "Vera City" and his nonsense about 902 serviceabilty.
***I suspect an old troll in a new disguise!!!
(the tell-tale sign will be if he starts wittering on about PAS and CPAS being run by the anti-christ!)
***I suspect an old troll in a new disguise!!!
(the tell-tale sign will be if he starts wittering on about PAS and CPAS being run by the anti-christ!)
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 415 Likes
on
218 Posts
South Yorkshire Police are obviously still very keen to keep their own helicopter. According to the news a couple of days ago they are now considering paying their (involuntary) subscription to NPAS and still finding the money to retain what they have! 
The Sheffield locals are very unhappy about the thought of losing their eye in the sky. How good to hear that, not many years ago everyone was against the thought of police aviation. The ASUs do obviously earn their keep in the eyes of the general public. Good luck to them, hope this works out for the best
The Sheffield locals are very unhappy about the thought of losing their eye in the sky. How good to hear that, not many years ago everyone was against the thought of police aviation. The ASUs do obviously earn their keep in the eyes of the general public. Good luck to them, hope this works out for the best
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Have the salesmen been around?
Fixed Wing Aircraft in Law Enforcement
In the words of a candidate on The Apprentice ... 'How many can I put you down for ?'
Tecnam MMA (Multi Mission Aircraft) - Costruzioni Aeronautiche Tecnam
http://www.tecnam.com/Flotta/MMA/Spe...cification.pdf
The workhorse
Although helicopters might make headlines and capture the glory, their fixed-wing cousins might just be content being a little older and perhaps wiser. Doing the airborne law enforcement missions quietly and effectively: airplanes, the workhorses of airborne law enforcement.
Although helicopters might make headlines and capture the glory, their fixed-wing cousins might just be content being a little older and perhaps wiser. Doing the airborne law enforcement missions quietly and effectively: airplanes, the workhorses of airborne law enforcement.
In the words of a candidate on The Apprentice ... 'How many can I put you down for ?'
Tecnam MMA (Multi Mission Aircraft) - Costruzioni Aeronautiche Tecnam
http://www.tecnam.com/Flotta/MMA/Spe...cification.pdf
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I'll put you down for half a dozen then!
To enhance the credence of the words somewhat, that promotional piece for fixed wing was written by former Lt Ken Solosky who was latterly the Chief Pilot of the all helicopter New York PD operation and then, in 'retirement', Chief Pilot of the Newark NJ helicopter operation.
So I would guess that he saw something missing from his arsenal ...... that fixed wing might fill.
Solosky gets about a bit and mixes it at conferences where NPAS also appear - so in answer to your question, yes, [certain elements of] NPAS are aware of the cost effectiveness of fixed wing based on access to the experiences of others at Networking events like 'law enforcement' aviation conferences.
There are a number of these occurring throughout the year and many of them are free to enter for ALE personnel so for NPAS they may be seen as a good investment in the future.
As the French Gendarmerie aviators may say about such things ......Bon!
So I would guess that he saw something missing from his arsenal ...... that fixed wing might fill.
Solosky gets about a bit and mixes it at conferences where NPAS also appear - so in answer to your question, yes, [certain elements of] NPAS are aware of the cost effectiveness of fixed wing based on access to the experiences of others at Networking events like 'law enforcement' aviation conferences.
There are a number of these occurring throughout the year and many of them are free to enter for ALE personnel so for NPAS they may be seen as a good investment in the future.
As the French Gendarmerie aviators may say about such things ......Bon!
Guest
Posts: n/a
South Yorkshire Police are obviously still very keen to keep their own helicopter. According to the news a couple of days ago they are now considering paying their (involuntary) subscription to NPAS and still finding the money to retain what they have!
Looking at the costs involved
http://meetings.southyorks.gov.uk/mg...2928&T=9&zTS=A
They appear to be seriously considering the "option 3".. whereby they operate 10 hours per day 7 days a week..
The cost 1.686 million per year..
Current cost of running their own unit (INCLUDING MAINTENANCE..!)
cost 1.68 million per year....
So for an increase in costs, they will lose use of their own a/c for half the period they run now.
Lose their maintenance section
Lose half their Observers
Lose half their Pilots
Lose a manager
Oh.. but cover for the rest of the period will come from NPAS.. so thats ok then..
Ah.. but only 700 hours per year INCLUDING travelling time of the "visiting" a/c.
Tell me again. Whats the advantage of doing this..?
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: england
Age: 74
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
response times
So in a quiet moment i had a look at this response time thing with south yorks and tried to reverse engineer the maths..
I put them in a spread sheet and added the SPEED column...
Is the 902 at South Yorks particularly slow..??
Because everyone seems to be quicker than them..?
Tabs removed: you will have to put it in a format that doesn't scroll across 2 feet of the page!
SP
I put them in a spread sheet and added the SPEED column...
Is the 902 at South Yorks particularly slow..??
Because everyone seems to be quicker than them..?
Tabs removed: you will have to put it in a format that doesn't scroll across 2 feet of the page!
SP
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fox5,
While you're doing the Maths, could you help out by factoring in a very basic
and fundamental principle that NPAS seem to have omitted :
NPAS have published maps depicting their now infamous "20 minute" range circles,
that indicate the proposed coverage under their 20 Base plan.
These maps appear to have been used to persuade Chief Constables and Police Authorities around the UK,
that they will receive a service that is more effective and will costs less.
The point has been raised previously elsewhere, and to my knowledge has not been contradicted,
( so I can only assume it is correct ), which is that the 20 minute circles
have been calculated incorrectly on the assumption that the aircraft
is travelling at a constant speed throughout the journey - from skids off to arrival,
( did they use 120 Kts or 120 MPH ? - The Circles seem to represent about 30 miles radius ),
when in reality of course, unless deploying while already at Transit speed and directly overhead the Base,
the aircraft starts from Base at 0 Kts, will have varying departure profiles depending on wind speed and direction,
and other factors that may preclude departing directly on track, BEFORE accelerating up to Transit Speed,
and then slowing down again as the target location is reached.
This basic principle means that the published 20 minute circles,
on which decisions as to whether to sign up to NPAS or not are being made,
may be WRONG and that the actual area that can be covered in 20 minutes is LESS.
( Of course it is accepted that there are times when aircraft WILL already be airborne
and on such occasions deployment times may be shorter, but generally most deployments are made from Base ).
The attached NPAS coverage map ( from the Public Domain ) illustrates the point nicely,
as there are also some "15 minute" circles - which in my very humble and unsupported opinion,
are probably more realistic of the area that COULD be covered in 20 minutes,
especially when taking into account that those 15 minute circles
have probably also been calculated with the same flawed mathematical assumption of constant aircraft speed.
So, all that needs to be factored in AFTER the above, is an examination of the time taken under existing practices -
from from when a person ( such as a PC ) at the scene of an incident requests Air Support,
to the time that the request reaches the ASU staff and a decision is made to deploy,
compared with the time taken to achieve this under any NPAS deployment plan, such as via a Regional or National Control Room,
with any additional time taken reducing the "20 minute" circles, and thus reducing effective coverage, even further.
A few Purple patches in there amongst the 15 minute circles
While you're doing the Maths, could you help out by factoring in a very basic
and fundamental principle that NPAS seem to have omitted :
NPAS have published maps depicting their now infamous "20 minute" range circles,
that indicate the proposed coverage under their 20 Base plan.
These maps appear to have been used to persuade Chief Constables and Police Authorities around the UK,
that they will receive a service that is more effective and will costs less.
The point has been raised previously elsewhere, and to my knowledge has not been contradicted,
( so I can only assume it is correct ), which is that the 20 minute circles
have been calculated incorrectly on the assumption that the aircraft
is travelling at a constant speed throughout the journey - from skids off to arrival,
( did they use 120 Kts or 120 MPH ? - The Circles seem to represent about 30 miles radius ),
when in reality of course, unless deploying while already at Transit speed and directly overhead the Base,
the aircraft starts from Base at 0 Kts, will have varying departure profiles depending on wind speed and direction,
and other factors that may preclude departing directly on track, BEFORE accelerating up to Transit Speed,
and then slowing down again as the target location is reached.
This basic principle means that the published 20 minute circles,
on which decisions as to whether to sign up to NPAS or not are being made,
may be WRONG and that the actual area that can be covered in 20 minutes is LESS.
( Of course it is accepted that there are times when aircraft WILL already be airborne
and on such occasions deployment times may be shorter, but generally most deployments are made from Base ).
The attached NPAS coverage map ( from the Public Domain ) illustrates the point nicely,
as there are also some "15 minute" circles - which in my very humble and unsupported opinion,
are probably more realistic of the area that COULD be covered in 20 minutes,
especially when taking into account that those 15 minute circles
have probably also been calculated with the same flawed mathematical assumption of constant aircraft speed.
So, all that needs to be factored in AFTER the above, is an examination of the time taken under existing practices -
from from when a person ( such as a PC ) at the scene of an incident requests Air Support,
to the time that the request reaches the ASU staff and a decision is made to deploy,
compared with the time taken to achieve this under any NPAS deployment plan, such as via a Regional or National Control Room,
with any additional time taken reducing the "20 minute" circles, and thus reducing effective coverage, even further.
A few Purple patches in there amongst the 15 minute circles
Cocochap,
I think you will find that the "20 minute" circles were actually based, not on any aviation or mathematical formula, but on an item of crockery.
Even from the point we walk/run out of the door, we cannot make Sheffield in the NPAS advertised time - even with a favourable wind.
You cannot change the laws of physics
I think you will find that the "20 minute" circles were actually based, not on any aviation or mathematical formula, but on an item of crockery
.Even from the point we walk/run out of the door, we cannot make Sheffield in the NPAS advertised time - even with a favourable wind.
You cannot change the laws of physics
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the "20 minute" circles were actually based, not on any aviation or mathematical formula, but on an item of crockery
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: england
Age: 74
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My table was removed by moderator..!
The speeds are all over the place when multiplied out.
But the SYP explorer only gets above 100kts on one item of data.
On quite a few it's only travelling at 60kts or so. While the NPAS a/c according to their figures are all travelling at over 100kts, and quite often 120kts or more. Hence the question about whether the 902 is slower than the NPAS a/c. ?
I'll try and re tabulate the data so it can be displayed.
The speeds are all over the place when multiplied out.
But the SYP explorer only gets above 100kts on one item of data.
On quite a few it's only travelling at 60kts or so. While the NPAS a/c according to their figures are all travelling at over 100kts, and quite often 120kts or more. Hence the question about whether the 902 is slower than the NPAS a/c. ?
I'll try and re tabulate the data so it can be displayed.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Interesting to note the 'uncovered' high crime rate city just to the north and west of map centre.
How can the CC of that city's force be happy enough to sign up to a plan that sees the biggest city on his patch being on the outer edges of the cover provided by 5 different units?
By the way when do we see the updated map with a few more green circles on it?
When it appears in public, I take it that with taxi times/ATC/movements etc, the timing circles will be based from 'Top of Climb'.
How can the CC of that city's force be happy enough to sign up to a plan that sees the biggest city on his patch being on the outer edges of the cover provided by 5 different units?
By the way when do we see the updated map with a few more green circles on it?
When it appears in public, I take it that with taxi times/ATC/movements etc, the timing circles will be based from 'Top of Climb'.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: england
Age: 74
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll try another way..
SYP WYP HUMPOL DERBY
These figures are the multiplied out speeds for the various a/c from the NPAS chart.
ie distance (NMs.?) divided by time (minutes) mulitplied by 60 to give knotts or MPH depending on what NPAS used.
.
AVERAGE A/C SPEEDS
sheffield...... SYP... 61........WYP .....114.... HUMB.... 125.... DERBS.... 113
darnall........ SYP..... 31.......WYP.... 115......HUMB ....125....DERBY.....112
heeley..........SYP......65.......WYP.....116.....HUMB...... 127....DERBY.....115
fox house.....SYP......78.......WYP.....115.....HUMB......127... .DERBY.....114
ecclesfield....SYP......74........WYP....112.....HUMB......1 26....DERBY.....118
orgreave.......SYP.....43........WYP....115.....HUMB.......1 27...DERBY.....116
rotherham.....SYP.....52........WYP....113.....HUMB.......12 6....DERBY....118
doncaster......SYP....101.......WYP....115.....HUMB.......12 2....DERBY....123
barnsley........SYP....100.......WYP......96.....HUMB....... 127....DERBY.....121
sorry about the rubbish formatting but its te best i could do for now..
If i figure out how to do it ill put the full chart on..
So I just wondered why the SYP aircraft is so slow, when the humberside a/c is very fast..?
SYP WYP HUMPOL DERBY
These figures are the multiplied out speeds for the various a/c from the NPAS chart.
ie distance (NMs.?) divided by time (minutes) mulitplied by 60 to give knotts or MPH depending on what NPAS used.
.
AVERAGE A/C SPEEDS
sheffield...... SYP... 61........WYP .....114.... HUMB.... 125.... DERBS.... 113
darnall........ SYP..... 31.......WYP.... 115......HUMB ....125....DERBY.....112
heeley..........SYP......65.......WYP.....116.....HUMB...... 127....DERBY.....115
fox house.....SYP......78.......WYP.....115.....HUMB......127... .DERBY.....114
ecclesfield....SYP......74........WYP....112.....HUMB......1 26....DERBY.....118
orgreave.......SYP.....43........WYP....115.....HUMB.......1 27...DERBY.....116
rotherham.....SYP.....52........WYP....113.....HUMB.......12 6....DERBY....118
doncaster......SYP....101.......WYP....115.....HUMB.......12 2....DERBY....123
barnsley........SYP....100.......WYP......96.....HUMB....... 127....DERBY.....121
sorry about the rubbish formatting but its te best i could do for now..
If i figure out how to do it ill put the full chart on..
So I just wondered why the SYP aircraft is so slow, when the humberside a/c is very fast..?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Up North
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahh, the magic 20 minute circle theory...
Fox 5 I think you've cracked the secret code. The NPAS created chart has at last been decoded, the numbers are all made up (by NPAS to prove their argument)
Fox 5 I think you've cracked the secret code. The NPAS created chart has at last been decoded, the numbers are all made up (by NPAS to prove their argument)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there any truth in the rumour that the bean counter's in the MET are going to slash their specialist services post Olympics to save money. This may include the removal of one of their aircraft. This surely will have grave consequences on the NPAS model as they are supposed to fill in lot's of gaps around them. (This rumour did come from another MET specialist unit not the ASU).
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 70
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the Met ASU does get absorbed into NPAS, it would be very interesting to see what would happen. The Met has some very specific but unusual deployment priority criteria, certainly when compared with other ASUs. They also have an already established system to cope well with a massive number of jobs suitable for ASU tasking. They also already fly over 3,000 hours per year (between 3 aircraft), so there is not much slack to be taken up on other force tasking.
It will be interesting to see who prevails: my money would be the "comfort blanket" for the senior officers managing the high profile events.
The Met though is very different from other ASUs. They already have an really effective dedicated control room facility and in-house engineering on their solo type. It will be very expensive to absorb into whatever NPAS ends up doing. Almost inevitably less effective IMO. Worse for the Met and not much availability for other forces.
In the end it may well depend upon how the senior bods in the MET approach things. The Commissioner when CC for Merseyside appeared to have been happy to lose his helicopter, without much pressure. And I believe he was the ACPO lead for air support at the time.
It will be interesting to see who prevails: my money would be the "comfort blanket" for the senior officers managing the high profile events.
The Met though is very different from other ASUs. They already have an really effective dedicated control room facility and in-house engineering on their solo type. It will be very expensive to absorb into whatever NPAS ends up doing. Almost inevitably less effective IMO. Worse for the Met and not much availability for other forces.
In the end it may well depend upon how the senior bods in the MET approach things. The Commissioner when CC for Merseyside appeared to have been happy to lose his helicopter, without much pressure. And I believe he was the ACPO lead for air support at the time.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
20minute circles based on crockery add to that the time delay built in by the call handler who answers the 999 call then passes this over to the controller who then passes it again on to the NPAS dispatch cell who then choos which aircraft to task who then need a minimum of two minutes to leave the office and start the aircraft and take off.......
Oh and the MET only ever have access to 1.5 aircraft for the simple fact the other bits are in for maintenance. So that map needs to reflect this. IMHO.
And back down the bunker for me.
Oh and the MET only ever have access to 1.5 aircraft for the simple fact the other bits are in for maintenance. So that map needs to reflect this. IMHO.
And back down the bunker for me.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So....
In that well publicised South Yorkshire Police Authority meeting, the one where they decided not to join NPAS,I'm sure I heard the NPAS representative telling them that under NPAS there will be a fleet of different aircraft, such as 135,s 145,s and Fixed Wings available for deployment to any NPAS member, when there is an identified need for one of them.
That might not actually be true then ?
In that well publicised South Yorkshire Police Authority meeting, the one where they decided not to join NPAS,I'm sure I heard the NPAS representative telling them that under NPAS there will be a fleet of different aircraft, such as 135,s 145,s and Fixed Wings available for deployment to any NPAS member, when there is an identified need for one of them.
That might not actually be true then ?