UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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TC I agree with your post, with one exception.
The job comes with huge responsibility. Especially during a vehicle pursuit, when at times I can be advising as to whether the pursuit is safe to continue or not.
I can be working with firearms officers, or guiding a dog handler to likely hiding places. Frequently I formulate search parameters for missing people and advise senior officers on viability of searches.
I've done pretty much all of those jobs as a police officer on the ground before I went to ASU. My colleagues on the ground know this and (most if the time) trust my judgement.
You CAN teach someone to do the nuts and bolts of flying. But as stated by others it's a "police" a/c. It's the same reason we don't civilianise firearms officers or dog handlers. Neither of those posts "need" to physically arrest someone, thus don't need to hold warranted powers. (There's always officers in support that can do that).
It's more a question of who "should" be doing it..!
If a civi Observer calls a pursuit safe to continue, or advises officers on a manoeuvre (having never driven a police car in anger). And then it all goes horribly wrong and someone dies. What then..?
Sometimes the most economical route isn't appropriate, because it devalues the service we provide.
Policing isn't a business.
The job comes with huge responsibility. Especially during a vehicle pursuit, when at times I can be advising as to whether the pursuit is safe to continue or not.
I can be working with firearms officers, or guiding a dog handler to likely hiding places. Frequently I formulate search parameters for missing people and advise senior officers on viability of searches.
I've done pretty much all of those jobs as a police officer on the ground before I went to ASU. My colleagues on the ground know this and (most if the time) trust my judgement.
You CAN teach someone to do the nuts and bolts of flying. But as stated by others it's a "police" a/c. It's the same reason we don't civilianise firearms officers or dog handlers. Neither of those posts "need" to physically arrest someone, thus don't need to hold warranted powers. (There's always officers in support that can do that).
It's more a question of who "should" be doing it..!
If a civi Observer calls a pursuit safe to continue, or advises officers on a manoeuvre (having never driven a police car in anger). And then it all goes horribly wrong and someone dies. What then..?
Sometimes the most economical route isn't appropriate, because it devalues the service we provide.
Policing isn't a business.
The question I have for you Morris, is: Have you seen a civvy doing your job for going on 2 years, covering every single aspect of your job - in anger?
It's true what you said: it "should" be an officer but it isn't technically essential.
[We are seeing the same with SAR - all the military element is being removed in toto. It won't degrade the service one iota.].
Humans adapt - period. It's amazing how the most unusual characters become proficient at alien activities once they have the hang of it and with the correct tuition. I know how you feel.
bw TC
It's true what you said: it "should" be an officer but it isn't technically essential.
[We are seeing the same with SAR - all the military element is being removed in toto. It won't degrade the service one iota.].
Humans adapt - period. It's amazing how the most unusual characters become proficient at alien activities once they have the hang of it and with the correct tuition. I know how you feel.
bw TC
Morris
Using your logic, then, officers should not be able to apply for positions on an air support unit until they have been pursuit trained and in a live pursuit, a firearms officer and a dog handler. They would also need to have co-ordinated missing person searches and advised senior officers.
Is there anything else you'd require as essential criteria?
Using your logic, then, officers should not be able to apply for positions on an air support unit until they have been pursuit trained and in a live pursuit, a firearms officer and a dog handler. They would also need to have co-ordinated missing person searches and advised senior officers.
Is there anything else you'd require as essential criteria?
Last edited by J.A.F.O.; 22nd Jan 2013 at 21:16.
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Jafo if you want to misquote me then fair enough.
But iff we're creating prerequisites the ONLY one I'd say is that applicants should have served a reasonable time as a uniformed Officer on general patrol duties.
All I'm saying is any officer having served a reasonable amount of time on general patrol duties applying for TFO, arrives with a skill set that a civi observer, even ex mil, won't have.
Or as the troll poster would believe,is it just about waving a camera around and saying stuff on a radio.
We should ask tho.. Where does the civilianisation process stop..?
Traffic. Marine Unit. Dogs. Horses. Divers. CID. Firearms. Public Order. Training. Surveillance. Close Protection.
I know loads of ex mil guys who could do those jobs, just as good (eventually) as a police officer, employed as police staff, and they'd do it cheaper.
What's the difference between a police officer driving a volvo, pulling you for speeding, than a PCSO or civi member of staff driving a Volvo and pulling you for speeding. It'd be cheaper..!
.
But iff we're creating prerequisites the ONLY one I'd say is that applicants should have served a reasonable time as a uniformed Officer on general patrol duties.
All I'm saying is any officer having served a reasonable amount of time on general patrol duties applying for TFO, arrives with a skill set that a civi observer, even ex mil, won't have.
Or as the troll poster would believe,is it just about waving a camera around and saying stuff on a radio.
We should ask tho.. Where does the civilianisation process stop..?
Traffic. Marine Unit. Dogs. Horses. Divers. CID. Firearms. Public Order. Training. Surveillance. Close Protection.
I know loads of ex mil guys who could do those jobs, just as good (eventually) as a police officer, employed as police staff, and they'd do it cheaper.
What's the difference between a police officer driving a volvo, pulling you for speeding, than a PCSO or civi member of staff driving a Volvo and pulling you for speeding. It'd be cheaper..!
.
Last edited by morris1; 23rd Jan 2013 at 01:09.
Morris
I have no wish to misquote you, so here is a verbatim quote:
You stated that your colleagues trust your judgement because you had fulfilled most of those roles prior to joining the ASU.
Therefore, how am I misquoting if I ask whether you'd like someone to have carried out those roles before applying to join an ASU?
Now you say, to directly quote you:
How much time is now reasonable? Does that also now mean that you don't think an officer should have necessarily worked with firearms officers, or guiding a dog handler to likely hiding places, formulating search parameters for missing people and advising senior officers on viability of searches?
If that's the case why would anyone trust their judgement?
I have no wish to misquote you, so here is a verbatim quote:
I can be working with firearms officers, or guiding a dog handler to likely hiding places. Frequently I formulate search parameters for missing people and advise senior officers on viability of searches.
I've done pretty much all of those jobs as a police officer on the ground before I went to ASU. My colleagues on the ground know this and (most if the time) trust my judgement.
I've done pretty much all of those jobs as a police officer on the ground before I went to ASU. My colleagues on the ground know this and (most if the time) trust my judgement.
Therefore, how am I misquoting if I ask whether you'd like someone to have carried out those roles before applying to join an ASU?
Now you say, to directly quote you:
iff we're creating prerequisites the ONLY one I'd say is that applicants should have served a reasonable time as a uniformed Officer on general patrol duties.
If that's the case why would anyone trust their judgement?
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There is no reason why a civvie couldn't be a good TFO very much like a 500 hour CPL with no military experience could be a very good/safe police pilot.
Last edited by Aerodynamik; 23rd Jan 2013 at 09:19.
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Jaco
My previous policing experience was put forward as a generic example of what previous policing officers bring to the role.
Nowhere did I stipulate that ALL those exact experiences should be mandatory for EVERY tfo...? Can you find that and quote that verbatim.?
The mix of previous policing roles of officers at all asu's gives a very broad range of skills and experiences. I think that is beneficial for the unit. Don't you?
I know it's controversial.
But I'm suggesting that maybe the best people to be doing police work in the air, are police officers..
Yes a civi can learn the nuts and bolts of the flying.
My previous policing experience was put forward as a generic example of what previous policing officers bring to the role.
Nowhere did I stipulate that ALL those exact experiences should be mandatory for EVERY tfo...? Can you find that and quote that verbatim.?
The mix of previous policing roles of officers at all asu's gives a very broad range of skills and experiences. I think that is beneficial for the unit. Don't you?
I know it's controversial.
But I'm suggesting that maybe the best people to be doing police work in the air, are police officers..
Yes a civi can learn the nuts and bolts of the flying.
Morris: I have no wish to denigrate the role of you and your colleagues, I flew with and for them for 14yrs and loved their professionalism. Don't fall for the troll bit - trouble makers unfortunately.
I would agree with your last post wholeheartedly. But politicians are NOT police officers and they have a track record...don't they?
I would agree with your last post wholeheartedly. But politicians are NOT police officers and they have a track record...don't they?
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Following this thread with interest, but what I have to say is you can never replace or replicate experience but also nobody is irreplaceable.
The talk of ex military or Joe civie off the street not being able to do the job is Little elitist.
That's were training comes into it, train, train and train some more and when you finally tick all the training objectives and pass the test you are sent out on probation with and experienced or Senior TFO (Snr TFO mans the radio's, controls the mapping and tells the Camera operator and pilot where to point the camera/aircraft)
Being within the said environment is the only way you will become experienced. A pilot has to start at the basics, A soldier, Sailor, Airman has to make the grade before being let lose in their own role.
So to say that TFO's are immune from civilization is not insurmountable IMHO.
Pilot (civie), Camera Operator/TFO (civie) Snr TFO (Police Officer)
To make it work (and I agree a Police helicopter is for the Police) you at least have to have 1 Police officer on board.
Standing by with hands on head for incoming
The talk of ex military or Joe civie off the street not being able to do the job is Little elitist.
That's were training comes into it, train, train and train some more and when you finally tick all the training objectives and pass the test you are sent out on probation with and experienced or Senior TFO (Snr TFO mans the radio's, controls the mapping and tells the Camera operator and pilot where to point the camera/aircraft)
Being within the said environment is the only way you will become experienced. A pilot has to start at the basics, A soldier, Sailor, Airman has to make the grade before being let lose in their own role.
So to say that TFO's are immune from civilization is not insurmountable IMHO.
Pilot (civie), Camera Operator/TFO (civie) Snr TFO (Police Officer)
To make it work (and I agree a Police helicopter is for the Police) you at least have to have 1 Police officer on board.
Standing by with hands on head for incoming
No, Morris, you said that your colleagues on the ground now respected your judgement in the air precisely because you had previously fulfilled most of those roles on the ground.
Therefore, the obvious inference is that for anyone's judgement in the air to be respected they must also have previously fulfilled most of those roles on the ground.
So, if they hadn't, they would not be respected. That's called logic, hence me starting my first post with the phrase "using your logic". I am sorry but it hadn't occurred to me that I was the only one using it and had hoped that you might join me.
I did not quote your post word for word as to do so would not have furthered the conversation; which was something I had hoped we might have.
I agree with you that a very broad range of skills and experiences brings benefits, it's just that I am a little more open minded about where those skills and experiences may have been garnered.
I certainly do not advocate the civilianisation of the role but am prepared to accept that all sorts of individuals may make a valuable contribution. I am also very aware of the fact that good police officers can make poor TFOs and good TFOs are not always police officers - to believe otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.
Therefore, the obvious inference is that for anyone's judgement in the air to be respected they must also have previously fulfilled most of those roles on the ground.
So, if they hadn't, they would not be respected. That's called logic, hence me starting my first post with the phrase "using your logic". I am sorry but it hadn't occurred to me that I was the only one using it and had hoped that you might join me.
I did not quote your post word for word as to do so would not have furthered the conversation; which was something I had hoped we might have.
I agree with you that a very broad range of skills and experiences brings benefits, it's just that I am a little more open minded about where those skills and experiences may have been garnered.
I certainly do not advocate the civilianisation of the role but am prepared to accept that all sorts of individuals may make a valuable contribution. I am also very aware of the fact that good police officers can make poor TFOs and good TFOs are not always police officers - to believe otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.
Last edited by J.A.F.O.; 23rd Jan 2013 at 11:59.
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That's the problem with pulling inferences from things.. It assumes one was being made in the first place. Which it wasn't.
I'm in no doubt the role will civilianised.
First partly. Then wholly.
My "opinion" is that those who are capable, should be drawn from serving police officers. I feel it's a role that "should" be fulfilled by an officer.
Just like traffic policing or public order work. Yes you can put a civi in a traffic car and get them to dish out tickets for speeding.
Cheaper than a police officer..
Easy.
But "should" we.
I'm in no doubt the role will civilianised.
First partly. Then wholly.
My "opinion" is that those who are capable, should be drawn from serving police officers. I feel it's a role that "should" be fulfilled by an officer.
Just like traffic policing or public order work. Yes you can put a civi in a traffic car and get them to dish out tickets for speeding.
Cheaper than a police officer..
Easy.
But "should" we.
Last edited by morris1; 23rd Jan 2013 at 13:08.
There is no reason why a civvie couldn't be a good TFO very much like a 500 hour CPL with no military experience could be a very good/safe police pilot
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It might interest some of you to note this FACT...
The only directly employed NPAS TFOs are civilians (both with 12 years experience in the role), the police officers are only with NPAS on a temporary basis (secondment from county forces).
The only directly employed NPAS TFOs are civilians (both with 12 years experience in the role), the police officers are only with NPAS on a temporary basis (secondment from county forces).
It might interest some of you to note this FACT...
The only directly employed NPAS TFOs are civilians (both with 12 years experience in the role), the police officers are only with NPAS on a temporary basis (secondment from county forces).
The only directly employed NPAS TFOs are civilians (both with 12 years experience in the role), the police officers are only with NPAS on a temporary basis (secondment from county forces).
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It might interest some of you to note this FACT...
The only directly employed NPAS TFOs are civilians (both with 12 years experience in the role), the police officers are only with NPAS on a temporary basis (secondment from county forces).
The only directly employed NPAS TFOs are civilians (both with 12 years experience in the role), the police officers are only with NPAS on a temporary basis (secondment from county forces).
