Scary situation on rooftop-helipad
I hate to toss the mundane into this conversation, as lively and enlightening as it is... but for all we know, it could simply be a matter of "I dropped my pen, bent to pick it up and wrapped my helmet cord around the controls."
It'll be interesting to hear the whole story.
It'll be interesting to hear the whole story.
Between 00:12 and 00:16 in the film clip seems to show something (blanket???) blowing down from the rotors (tail rotor area???) onto the helipad and then off to the right of screen. Seems a likely contributing factor.......
Avoid imitations
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Yeah, I said that back in post # 9....I guess only you and me see it.....
ShyTorque
Missed it sorry....and going back and looking again, you are probably right. I was concentrating too much on the "red". I can now see the "green" doing the same.
Read my post, #25.
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Maybe next time he'll leave the hp's on, and maybe check up slightly on the collective instead of keeping it all the way at the bottom.
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Taking off with the helipilots not engaged is no biggy, just a little more wobbly.
That to me looks like he was just about to get airborne and the seat slid fully backward, which can happen if the adjustment locking pin isn't fully engaged - and it travels a fair way back! That would explain the leap into the air and little or no tail rotor control. The sideways jerk is a result of an attempt to get the seat slid back forward?? I always check the seats locked post seat movement - pre start. My 2 cents.
That to me looks like he was just about to get airborne and the seat slid fully backward, which can happen if the adjustment locking pin isn't fully engaged - and it travels a fair way back! That would explain the leap into the air and little or no tail rotor control. The sideways jerk is a result of an attempt to get the seat slid back forward?? I always check the seats locked post seat movement - pre start. My 2 cents.
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Epiphany and other drivers down here talking about the 412 bounce at MPOG and the slight two inches of pitch to be pulled to fix it are damm right to me!
I usually fly a pair of EP's, allmost identical twins ships; they have the same bounce attitude at start up and minimum pitch on ground.
The only change is my arse-feeling of the onset of that vibration.
Not assuming the bounce onset is what happened on the roofpad in Insbruck, I simply don't have any information about it apart what I see in the video.
The "red blanket" is the red of the paint scheme of the ship being defocused by the relative small definition of the video.
Just saying that the inadventent bounce onset + some AP's disingaged for any reason (may be inverter OFF check) + the brutal pitch pull on a 15 floors building (pinnacle) without strong visual references in a ****-scary moment may be the explanation of what had happen and COULD happen to every 412 driver with less than desired experience.
I usually fly a pair of EP's, allmost identical twins ships; they have the same bounce attitude at start up and minimum pitch on ground.
The only change is my arse-feeling of the onset of that vibration.
Not assuming the bounce onset is what happened on the roofpad in Insbruck, I simply don't have any information about it apart what I see in the video.
The "red blanket" is the red of the paint scheme of the ship being defocused by the relative small definition of the video.
Just saying that the inadventent bounce onset + some AP's disingaged for any reason (may be inverter OFF check) + the brutal pitch pull on a 15 floors building (pinnacle) without strong visual references in a ****-scary moment may be the explanation of what had happen and COULD happen to every 412 driver with less than desired experience.
Last edited by maeroda; 13th Mar 2011 at 23:02.
I can't believe collective bounce or ground resonance are being considered by Ppruners. Looking forward to some follow up information from the people involved or the authorities.
Aaahhh, the notorious 412 collective bounce, any pilot with enough time in the 412 is fully aware of it.
Some other issues may have added to it though, little or no collective friction, HPs off, a possible droop restraint engaging at a time when it was not supposed to do so, and yes a seat sliding back beyond reach of the pedals.
Was the pilot accelerating from idle (77%), after dropping off the patient or did he/she maintain the RPMs up all the time?
Some other issues may have added to it though, little or no collective friction, HPs off, a possible droop restraint engaging at a time when it was not supposed to do so, and yes a seat sliding back beyond reach of the pedals.
Was the pilot accelerating from idle (77%), after dropping off the patient or did he/she maintain the RPMs up all the time?
reports say, that he was idling for noise abatement when unloading the patient.
the pilot has 8000 hours. don't know how many of those are on the 412 since that machine is fairly new to their fleet.
they did tests on the machine for the last couple of days but couldn't find anything wrong with it. the 412 is now up and flying again!
the pilot has 8000 hours. don't know how many of those are on the 412 since that machine is fairly new to their fleet.
they did tests on the machine for the last couple of days but couldn't find anything wrong with it. the 412 is now up and flying again!
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Taking off with the helipilots not engaged is no biggy, just a little more wobbly.
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speculation
some month before basically the helicopter got grounded due to the state of condition. this led to a change of the crew and suddenly this was a incident not coming on surprise
with all this asumptions and speculations, facts need to be stated before finding the reason of the failure on the machine itself.
even a pilot with 12 000 h , 4000h on type and a techn. License current on 412 flying this machine was ignored by the operator and fired after pointing out the problem under which the helicopter was assuemd by the owner to be airworthy and ready for operation !
also was not implemented the additional needs of procedures different from the other helicopters ( if there where any at all ) like the 204 they operate( 50 % crashed ), 205 crashed, Alouettte III crashed, AS 350 with full throttle on ground without pilot turned upside down, a Lama with undereducated pilot into cable ( sölden, 8+dead) and the Rescue Helicopters As355 ( crashed ) and MD 902 ( crashed ), 212 blades into ground, according to regulations expressed in the OM approved by the local CAA. instead they made a own over the thumb checklist. so the devil was in the detail and not hiding somehwere. this information i stated above was googled after looking in the accident reports in austria and when researching what was happening to each helicopter in the company. so it is free and open resource and nomade up facts.
idling down, bouncing, not knowing to correct it and in panik lift off on half way to thottle full open make each take off interesting to watch. -> maybe next time a checklist shall be used if not sure how to do, prevents a lot of mistakes which each one can make, but in intention ignoring it is no excuse. especial this happend in innsbruck downtown.
as one can see the tail IS going up and down, the wild movement of the tail are most lilely the fast winding of the throttle. the fast take off the instinkt of a pilot who flew many years lama known for grounsresonance and the required action needed. additional a takeoff with the AP´s off so inputs like the left roll is a result, which was several time observed as mistake without checklist. again it is easy to make a mistake but be permanent resistant to inputs form experienced 412 pilots/ 412 ingenieurs and TRE doenst change the level. google the history or heli austria ( known before as Knaus Helicopter , Heli Triol, Heli austria, Ländle Heli).
after researching this the view is a other one.
so one still thinking this is just bad luck?
with all this asumptions and speculations, facts need to be stated before finding the reason of the failure on the machine itself.
even a pilot with 12 000 h , 4000h on type and a techn. License current on 412 flying this machine was ignored by the operator and fired after pointing out the problem under which the helicopter was assuemd by the owner to be airworthy and ready for operation !
also was not implemented the additional needs of procedures different from the other helicopters ( if there where any at all ) like the 204 they operate( 50 % crashed ), 205 crashed, Alouettte III crashed, AS 350 with full throttle on ground without pilot turned upside down, a Lama with undereducated pilot into cable ( sölden, 8+dead) and the Rescue Helicopters As355 ( crashed ) and MD 902 ( crashed ), 212 blades into ground, according to regulations expressed in the OM approved by the local CAA. instead they made a own over the thumb checklist. so the devil was in the detail and not hiding somehwere. this information i stated above was googled after looking in the accident reports in austria and when researching what was happening to each helicopter in the company. so it is free and open resource and nomade up facts.
idling down, bouncing, not knowing to correct it and in panik lift off on half way to thottle full open make each take off interesting to watch. -> maybe next time a checklist shall be used if not sure how to do, prevents a lot of mistakes which each one can make, but in intention ignoring it is no excuse. especial this happend in innsbruck downtown.
as one can see the tail IS going up and down, the wild movement of the tail are most lilely the fast winding of the throttle. the fast take off the instinkt of a pilot who flew many years lama known for grounsresonance and the required action needed. additional a takeoff with the AP´s off so inputs like the left roll is a result, which was several time observed as mistake without checklist. again it is easy to make a mistake but be permanent resistant to inputs form experienced 412 pilots/ 412 ingenieurs and TRE doenst change the level. google the history or heli austria ( known before as Knaus Helicopter , Heli Triol, Heli austria, Ländle Heli).
after researching this the view is a other one.
so one still thinking this is just bad luck?
Last edited by SLINGKING; 14th Mar 2011 at 01:54.