Slow death of airmanship.
Avoid imitations
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Can I come to the party? (You must be 65 by now)
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I am advocating full compliance by all ???
Well that is an admirable motherhood statement!
How do you reconcile that statement with your practice of not pre-fighting your aircraft?
The hierarchy of manuals has the flight manual at the top. You cannot pick and choose the parts of this manual you have the energy to comply with or not!
If you are truly satisfied that the pre-flight as described in the flight manual has been made redundant by robust systems and procedures put in place by your company, then you should have the flight manual amended. Good luck with that! Then you will be in compliance as you advocate.
Well that is an admirable motherhood statement!
How do you reconcile that statement with your practice of not pre-fighting your aircraft?
The hierarchy of manuals has the flight manual at the top. You cannot pick and choose the parts of this manual you have the energy to comply with or not!
If you are truly satisfied that the pre-flight as described in the flight manual has been made redundant by robust systems and procedures put in place by your company, then you should have the flight manual amended. Good luck with that! Then you will be in compliance as you advocate.
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That’s an interesting idea.
Re-write the flight manual to conform to the operating company’s culture to enable all pilots to comply without even leaving the office.
Brilliant! Can you cancel gravity and do something about drag while you have your typewriter out?
Re-write the flight manual to conform to the operating company’s culture to enable all pilots to comply without even leaving the office.
Brilliant! Can you cancel gravity and do something about drag while you have your typewriter out?
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You cannot pick and choose the parts of this manual you have the energy to comply with or not!
"Ah, I see! We do not apply that paragraph in our Operations manual".
I kid you not.
(Irish airline no longer trading)
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I truly do not wish to put words in your mouth but, it sounds like you saying that if you show up on shift and there is some indication that some other person may have carried out a preflight inspection at some time in the last 24 hours then it is ok to jump in, kick it in the guts and go?
How can you choose to ignore that part of the flight manual?? What other items in the flight manual does your company culture choose to ignore?
How can you choose to ignore that part of the flight manual?? What other items in the flight manual does your company culture choose to ignore?
EXTERIOR CHECK
The pilot will determine that the following exterior preflight check has been done before the first flight of the day or before the next flight after extended maintenance. Those items marked with an asterisk (*) should be checked just prior to each flight. Following removal and proper stowage of protective plugs, tie downs, and other associated supplementary equipment, the following check is performed beginning at the pilot's door and proceeding clockwise around the helicopter.
The pilot will determine that the following exterior preflight check has been done before the first flight of the day or before the next flight after extended maintenance. Those items marked with an asterisk (*) should be checked just prior to each flight. Following removal and proper stowage of protective plugs, tie downs, and other associated supplementary equipment, the following check is performed beginning at the pilot's door and proceeding clockwise around the helicopter.
I agree, good airmanship means we perform more than the minimum. There must be a walk around prior to each flight.
Who is at fault?
The previous Pilot for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out?not in the RFM
The maintainer for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out?really, you have to ask?
The Captain for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out? ( A “walk around” is not a pre flight inspection in accordance with the flight manual).
The previous Pilot for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out?not in the RFM
The maintainer for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out?really, you have to ask?
The Captain for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out? ( A “walk around” is not a pre flight inspection in accordance with the flight manual).
I agree on some of your earlier points about the importance of all of us involved in a flight doing what we say we are doing. Never sign for something that wasn't done. It just appears to me that we are drifting beyond that to drive home a point, and losing the integrity of the argument.
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this is getting tedious, unlikevice .......
Please state where I have said for the pilot NOT to do a walk-around prior to flight???
I simply stated that the safety culture / whatever places at least two barriers one probably by the engineer and the second probably by the pilot to give the best chance of finding something wrong with the aircraft.
And I could not understand anyone not realizing that is why we as pilots do a walk-around (minimum) ....... durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Please state where I have said for the pilot NOT to do a walk-around prior to flight???
I simply stated that the safety culture / whatever places at least two barriers one probably by the engineer and the second probably by the pilot to give the best chance of finding something wrong with the aircraft.
And I could not understand anyone not realizing that is why we as pilots do a walk-around (minimum) ....... durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Same here .... read pilot and apprentice ..... "pilot will determine that pre-flight has been completed" .... does not state he himself should do that ....... you are being pernickety ..... depends also what your company states for you to do .... and still I am compliant .....
Avoid imitations
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pilot-and-apprentice, Are you sure you don’t have an after flight inspection? It may not be in the RFM but as an S76 is an A class machine the system of maintenance should have picked up the engine after flight requirements. If you don’t have an after flight requirement in you system of maintenance, you should.
Do you do it? Or do you delegate it?
Do you do it? Or do you delegate it?
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What I would really like to know is.
If the daily inspection is carried out by the maintainers and I then do my preflight inspection knowing that somebody else has certified for all the same (plus some) of what I am required to do IAW the flight manual. I then certify for that inspection by accepting the aircraft.
Who carries the can if something is missed?
The last person who certified or both? In either case I fully realize who has to cope with the inflight emergency!!!!!!
If the daily inspection is carried out by the maintainers and I then do my preflight inspection knowing that somebody else has certified for all the same (plus some) of what I am required to do IAW the flight manual. I then certify for that inspection by accepting the aircraft.
Who carries the can if something is missed?
The last person who certified or both? In either case I fully realize who has to cope with the inflight emergency!!!!!!
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Gymble, if u die, the lawyers will say it's all the engineers responsibility, if you live, they will go for whoever has the most money.
Regarding preflights, our ops manual states that pilot must ensure a preflight has been carried out and signed off, doesn't say who has to do it. I check to see who has done it, then decide how much I will do...
Regarding preflights, our ops manual states that pilot must ensure a preflight has been carried out and signed off, doesn't say who has to do it. I check to see who has done it, then decide how much I will do...
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Seems to me the holes in the Swiss cheese are beginning to line up!
If the maintainer does as much or as little as he sees fit and the Captain then does the same. How are we to know if the entire pre-flight IAW the flight manual has been carried out?
When we sign and accept an aircraft, we are responsible or irresponsible, what ever the case for the pre-flight inspection and the aircraft.
SuperF, You make my point for me! Airmanship is dead. You had to go look at your operation manual to find out if you needed to pre-flight your aircraft!
If the maintainer does as much or as little as he sees fit and the Captain then does the same. How are we to know if the entire pre-flight IAW the flight manual has been carried out?
When we sign and accept an aircraft, we are responsible or irresponsible, what ever the case for the pre-flight inspection and the aircraft.
SuperF, You make my point for me! Airmanship is dead. You had to go look at your operation manual to find out if you needed to pre-flight your aircraft!
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Cannot resist ...... title is "slow death" first paragraph mentions "decline" and, lo and behold it is now suddenly "dead"!!
Most would say airmanship is not written, simply a learned prudent or defensive flying action / decision ...... SuperF was surely right to check his ops manual as it may differ from the RFM - as many would argue only section 1 Limitations MUST be obeyed!!
Now where was I ......
Most would say airmanship is not written, simply a learned prudent or defensive flying action / decision ...... SuperF was surely right to check his ops manual as it may differ from the RFM - as many would argue only section 1 Limitations MUST be obeyed!!
Now where was I ......
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Mmmmm .....
...... please protect me/us from Pedants.
pedant |ˈpɛd(ə)nt|
noun
a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.
...... please protect me/us from Pedants.
pedant |ˈpɛd(ə)nt|
noun
a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.
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Sorry unvicelike, but i said "our ops manual states", not "i went and looked".
i still haven't looked, but will guarantee that our ops manual states that it must be carried out.
looks like Airmanship is alive and well down here, maybe its just your organisation where its dead. Don't tar us all with the same brush.
i still haven't looked, but will guarantee that our ops manual states that it must be carried out.
looks like Airmanship is alive and well down here, maybe its just your organisation where its dead. Don't tar us all with the same brush.
