Slow death of airmanship.
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Your patients develops as you age!
Aussies can never spell but .... in my experience age leads to greater intolerance, not patience.
Quite astounding that the tool-control system, walk-around / pre-flight by at least two others is not seen as anything other than the barriers put in place by the safety case / risk assessment to allow for human error and prevent repetition of previous incidents ........
Quite astounding that the tool-control system, walk-around / pre-flight by at least two others is not seen as anything other than the barriers put in place by the safety case / risk assessment to allow for human error and prevent repetition of previous incidents ........
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Tistisnot Before I dive into a detailed response, May I have some clarification of you point of view?
Is it your view that if there are robust systems and procedures including tool control in place and at least two people have inspected the aircraft before you fly it, then there is no practical need for a Captain to carry out a preflight in accordance with the Flight Manual?
Is it your view that if there are robust systems and procedures including tool control in place and at least two people have inspected the aircraft before you fly it, then there is no practical need for a Captain to carry out a preflight in accordance with the Flight Manual?
Chinook....US Army....complete number two engine gone from the aircraft
SASless . . . . rip van winkle arises from his slumber . . . .. were you telling us that you went out to fly this machine? Fair dinkum?
chiefy .. the number four engine is missing
well I come out and check it and give it a run up
no chiefy . .. I mean the engine is not there!
in the NSW Air Ambulance hangar back in the Queenair days
it was a cold frosty morning at 5 am. The patients were loaded
by the flight sister in the slightly warmer hangar as sometimes was the practice. Only on that morning our blonde beauty loaded two stretchers and two walkers into the plane before the engineer came out of his warm office to tell her that not only was the Queenair on jacks but the right
engine had yet to be reinstalled.
Pardon the drift here
It is good that Mr Unlikevice has come aboard again (his only postings being to this thread, curiously enough) For if nothing else its a subject that needs to be aired and revisited as often as mere mortals ponder the traps and snares potentially awaiting a moment's inattention, a lapse in mindfulness.
How ever many safeguards there are in place, how ever often the book is rewritten, nothing is a substitute for plane shrewd old eternal vigilance.
All the OH & S in the world will not prevent the blunder that slips past
every check point. It also has something to do with the syndrome
loosely called 'The nanny state'. The cure that worsens the malaise.
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I have seen Professional Pilots unable to interpret a flight manual and a minimum equipment list. Leading to phone calls to the flight standards department whilst operationally deployed.
I have seen pilots certify for ‘Pilot approved maintenance’ without ever carrying out that maintenance.
I consistently see pilots skip a pre- flight check of the aircraft. (The first thing you learn when learning to fly)
I have seen pilots certify for ‘Pilot approved maintenance’ without ever carrying out that maintenance.
I consistently see pilots skip a pre- flight check of the aircraft. (The first thing you learn when learning to fly)
Perhaps your pilots are so in fear of their management that they are afraid of making any decision at all, so call back for top cover on the slightest matter?
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unlikevice
Impulsive, leaping to conclusions .... I resemble those remarks
No, the pilot is one of the "at least two others" - pre-flight inspection by maintenance, and a walk-round by one of the men with stripes (or whatever it happens to be named) .....
No, the pilot is one of the "at least two others" - pre-flight inspection by maintenance, and a walk-round by one of the men with stripes (or whatever it happens to be named) .....
Oh, he's not that hard to find...
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The aircraft lands. It’s late at night, cold and the entire crew has had enough for the day.
The Captain elects to skip his post flight inspection, secure in the knowledge that a maintainer will be preforming a daily inspection in just a few hours time. And besides, no body else does a post flight inspection.
The maintainer arrives on the seen unfit for duty. He has been up all night with sick kids. Does not feel he can take the day off because he had a day off last week.
The Maintainer elects to skip the daily inspection. What could have changed in a day anyway? Secure in the Knowledge that the Pilot will do a preflight shortly anyway.
Along comes tistisnot with clean hands and a clean uniform. He has been busy briefing his crew for the day and looking at the weather, airman’s notes and the latest staff instructions.
Before starting the aircraft tistisnot preforms a ”walk around”. The walk around is carried out in accordance with what ever has become normal for the company he works for. Three wheels, four blades, ne dents, good to go! Secure in the knowledge that at lease two other people have inspected the aircraft before him.
Now there is an inflight emergency that could have been picked up before the commencement of the flight. Tistitnot’s Widow has a couple of people to sue.
Who is at fault?
The previous Pilot for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out?
The maintainer for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out?
The Captain for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out? ( A “walk around” is not a pre flight inspection in accordance with the flight manual).
The Captain elects to skip his post flight inspection, secure in the knowledge that a maintainer will be preforming a daily inspection in just a few hours time. And besides, no body else does a post flight inspection.
The maintainer arrives on the seen unfit for duty. He has been up all night with sick kids. Does not feel he can take the day off because he had a day off last week.
The Maintainer elects to skip the daily inspection. What could have changed in a day anyway? Secure in the Knowledge that the Pilot will do a preflight shortly anyway.
Along comes tistisnot with clean hands and a clean uniform. He has been busy briefing his crew for the day and looking at the weather, airman’s notes and the latest staff instructions.
Before starting the aircraft tistisnot preforms a ”walk around”. The walk around is carried out in accordance with what ever has become normal for the company he works for. Three wheels, four blades, ne dents, good to go! Secure in the knowledge that at lease two other people have inspected the aircraft before him.
Now there is an inflight emergency that could have been picked up before the commencement of the flight. Tistitnot’s Widow has a couple of people to sue.
Who is at fault?
The previous Pilot for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out?
The maintainer for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out?
The Captain for certifying for an inspection he has not carried out? ( A “walk around” is not a pre flight inspection in accordance with the flight manual).
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Unlikevice,
I am joining this discussion late because I really wanted to get your drift. I must say,I have not quite got it, yet.
Please understand I am NOT advocating skipping a preflight or a post flight inspection.I think that is a given.If it is required by your company it has to be done.
What I am wondering is , by your logic, every airline pilot is a poor airman?
I have flown extensively domestically and internationally as self loading baggage.I have yet to see an airline pilot open a cowling or climb the tail to check for cracks.He/she does do a walk around to make sure that the big pieces are glued together.Beyond that,I am sure, they trust their engineers or mechanics or technicians to have done their part to make sure that the bird is airworthy.
Are they wrong? Or is it only the helicopter industry that hires untrustworthy pilots and technicians.
By the way, I have some time on single engine jets and I have never seen a fighter pilot do a "preflight". Again, call it a walk around, externals, preflight,it still is an activity that simply involves something less than a full preflight, as we helicopter types are familiar with. So, by your statements, airmanship is dead in the military as well?
Help me out here unlikevice.I am struggling to understand.
Alt3.
I am joining this discussion late because I really wanted to get your drift. I must say,I have not quite got it, yet.
Please understand I am NOT advocating skipping a preflight or a post flight inspection.I think that is a given.If it is required by your company it has to be done.
What I am wondering is , by your logic, every airline pilot is a poor airman?
I have flown extensively domestically and internationally as self loading baggage.I have yet to see an airline pilot open a cowling or climb the tail to check for cracks.He/she does do a walk around to make sure that the big pieces are glued together.Beyond that,I am sure, they trust their engineers or mechanics or technicians to have done their part to make sure that the bird is airworthy.
Are they wrong? Or is it only the helicopter industry that hires untrustworthy pilots and technicians.
By the way, I have some time on single engine jets and I have never seen a fighter pilot do a "preflight". Again, call it a walk around, externals, preflight,it still is an activity that simply involves something less than a full preflight, as we helicopter types are familiar with. So, by your statements, airmanship is dead in the military as well?
Help me out here unlikevice.I am struggling to understand.
Alt3.
Well, he hasn't posted since March.
Avoid imitations
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The style of writing and strong opinions in the same vein easily gave it away after just a couple of days......
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unlikevice
You are talking crap .... you are putting words in my mouth .... if the Captain comes in and notices that the Pre-Flight Inspection has not been done, then he should act accordingly, not simply dismiss it and carry on regardless. I am advocating full compliance by all .............
Crikey, all I did was spot another Aussie spelling mistake ..... that's all!
You are talking crap .... you are putting words in my mouth .... if the Captain comes in and notices that the Pre-Flight Inspection has not been done, then he should act accordingly, not simply dismiss it and carry on regardless. I am advocating full compliance by all .............
Crikey, all I did was spot another Aussie spelling mistake ..... that's all!
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I truly do not wish to put words in your mouth but, it sounds like you saying that if you show up on shift and there is some indication that some other person may have carried out a preflight inspection at some time in the last 24 hours then it is ok to jump in, kick it in the guts and go?
How can you choose to ignore that part of the flight manual?? What other items in the flight manual does your company culture choose to ignore?
How can you choose to ignore that part of the flight manual?? What other items in the flight manual does your company culture choose to ignore?
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unlikevice ..... are you just spoiling for a fight?!
Is it your view that if there are robust systems and procedures including tool control in place and at least two people have inspected the aircraft before you fly it, then there is no practical need for a Captain to carry out a preflight in accordance with the Flight Manual?
Erm, in my mind, the engineer is probably the first person, and the pilot .... the second? And to repeat:
I am advocating full compliance by all .............
Is it your view that if there are robust systems and procedures including tool control in place and at least two people have inspected the aircraft before you fly it, then there is no practical need for a Captain to carry out a preflight in accordance with the Flight Manual?
Erm, in my mind, the engineer is probably the first person, and the pilot .... the second? And to repeat:
I am advocating full compliance by all .............
Not at my workplace. I fully intend to reach my retirement safely. Sounds like a few backsides need kicking round yours.
CG
Can I come to the party? (You must be 65 by now
)
The style of writing and strong opinions in the same vein easily gave it away after just a couple of days.....
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AIRMANSHIP
CASA Definition
The consistent use of sound judgement and well-*‐developed flight skills to
achieve flight objectives.
History
No longer merely “common sense” nor an undefined skill that is passively infused through exposure leading to a “mystical state of heightened knowledge/awareness”.
Airmanship is now trained (and assessed)! It is an active pursuit through training and study (professionalism and accountability) in which we constantly develop our knowledge base, seek out information before/during/after flight and process that information in order to make sound decisions.
A Modern Day Definition
Therefore, modern day AIRMANSHIP is about professionalism (pursuit of knowledge/information) and flight discipline (application of Rules/Maintenance of Standards) and accountability (play your role in safety).
CASA Definition
The consistent use of sound judgement and well-*‐developed flight skills to
achieve flight objectives.
History
No longer merely “common sense” nor an undefined skill that is passively infused through exposure leading to a “mystical state of heightened knowledge/awareness”.
Airmanship is now trained (and assessed)! It is an active pursuit through training and study (professionalism and accountability) in which we constantly develop our knowledge base, seek out information before/during/after flight and process that information in order to make sound decisions.
A Modern Day Definition
Therefore, modern day AIRMANSHIP is about professionalism (pursuit of knowledge/information) and flight discipline (application of Rules/Maintenance of Standards) and accountability (play your role in safety).