Helicopter crash off the coast of Newfoundland - 18 aboard, March 2009
Best autorotation speed is 80-100kts. ARA`s are done >80kts.
With regard to the second - if that's your Company's SOPs then you should be directing this point to them. There is no reason I can think of why you would want to complete an ARA at a speed greater than 80kts???
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Survivor was a passenger, to answer an earlier post.
The fact is, once the helo inverted, there was very little chance of anyone escaping. There has been much in the media about the fact that NFLD SAR was in Nova Scotia conducting training exercises at the time, and as a result, Cougar was doing their own SAR.
Those men, and at least one woman, had less than a minute to exit the chopper. Considering they may have been injured, were upside down, cold and in pitch black, that is a huge feat for anyone. They had immersion suits yes, but without an EBS, they would have had seconds.
It would have taken a minimum of 20 minutes for SAR to reach the site from St. John's--that would have been too late for these souls. To say that St. john's based SAR would have made a difference is a fallacy. As it is, there have been aircraft searching the area in rather difficult conditions. I am very frustrated with the criticism in the MSM.
To date, the names of the deceased have not been released. One of the pilots was a former military (Sea King) pilot.
Rest in peace.
The fact is, once the helo inverted, there was very little chance of anyone escaping. There has been much in the media about the fact that NFLD SAR was in Nova Scotia conducting training exercises at the time, and as a result, Cougar was doing their own SAR.
Those men, and at least one woman, had less than a minute to exit the chopper. Considering they may have been injured, were upside down, cold and in pitch black, that is a huge feat for anyone. They had immersion suits yes, but without an EBS, they would have had seconds.
It would have taken a minimum of 20 minutes for SAR to reach the site from St. John's--that would have been too late for these souls. To say that St. john's based SAR would have made a difference is a fallacy. As it is, there have been aircraft searching the area in rather difficult conditions. I am very frustrated with the criticism in the MSM.
To date, the names of the deceased have not been released. One of the pilots was a former military (Sea King) pilot.
Rest in peace.
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"With regard to the first, I don't think one more yellow caution would really be a distraction when you HAVE to do an auto!"
VL, I agree but think you are missing the point. If you do this a lot you would know what I`m talking about.
Comparing the SP, I belive you can arm the floats at 135 kts. On the S-92 its 80 kts.
"With regard to the second - if that's your Company's SOPs then you should be directing this point to them. There is no reason I can think of why you would want to complete an ARA at a speed greater than 80kts??? "
VL, Why would you want to fly below Vy on an ARA approach?
The reason for flying an ARA at VY is if you loose an engine at this point, all you would have to do is adjust collective. All the rest is set, a/c attitude, Best Rate of Climb 80kts. The drawback is your speed is to high for arming the floats.
All this is beside the cause of the accident, but explains some details around the float issue.
VL, I agree but think you are missing the point. If you do this a lot you would know what I`m talking about.
Comparing the SP, I belive you can arm the floats at 135 kts. On the S-92 its 80 kts.
"With regard to the second - if that's your Company's SOPs then you should be directing this point to them. There is no reason I can think of why you would want to complete an ARA at a speed greater than 80kts??? "
VL, Why would you want to fly below Vy on an ARA approach?
The reason for flying an ARA at VY is if you loose an engine at this point, all you would have to do is adjust collective. All the rest is set, a/c attitude, Best Rate of Climb 80kts. The drawback is your speed is to high for arming the floats.
All this is beside the cause of the accident, but explains some details around the float issue.
I believe there was criticism of the S-92 during the development that it would be quite difficult to evacuate in the event of a ditching. This was in comparison to the EC225 and was due to the size of its cabin (the big selling point of course) and the height of the windows.
Of course, any aircraft that rolls in water is going to be potentially very difficult to get out of. I firmly believe that was the saving grace of the 225 accident last month.
Of course, any aircraft that rolls in water is going to be potentially very difficult to get out of. I firmly believe that was the saving grace of the 225 accident last month.
but think you are missing the point. If you do this a lot you would know what I`m talking about.
VL, Why would you want to fly below Vy on an ARA approach?
The reason for flying an ARA at VY is if you loose an engine at this point, all you would have to do is adjust collective. All the rest is set, a/c attitude, Best Rate of Climb 80kts. The drawback is your speed is to high for arming the floats.
The reason for flying an ARA at VY is if you loose an engine at this point, all you would have to do is adjust collective. All the rest is set, a/c attitude, Best Rate of Climb 80kts. The drawback is your speed is to high for arming the floats.
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'xcuse my ignorance but would this helicopter carry a flight data and cockpit voice recorder as reported in the Star?
TheStar.com | Canada | Search for chopper crash victims called off
TheStar.com | Canada | Search for chopper crash victims called off
'xcuse my ignorance but would this helicopter carry a flight data and cockpit voice recorder as reported in the Star?
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I do not recomend using Vmini on any approach even if it is stated in the limitation as a minimum IFR speed. Read Pans-Ops. and you will be enlightened.
Using Vtoss or 50 kts LDP on an ARA approach at MAP 0.75 NM is asking for trouble in any OEI situations and I sincerely hope your instructors do not teach that? Of course you can do it, but try it in 50-60 kts wind. How stable is your aircraft then. Always think worst case scenario, not what the aircraft is capable of doing.
Good luck.
Using Vtoss or 50 kts LDP on an ARA approach at MAP 0.75 NM is asking for trouble in any OEI situations and I sincerely hope your instructors do not teach that? Of course you can do it, but try it in 50-60 kts wind. How stable is your aircraft then. Always think worst case scenario, not what the aircraft is capable of doing.
Good luck.
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You know, pilots are quick to arm chair quarterback! It is our nature to analyze and evaluate accidents without much information, which is a good thing. Some of us have been there, done that. Some of us have not. However, during a time like this and considering I have been in this business for 33 years, I think first of the loss of life and grieving of the families. The loss of life is more important to me than trying to figure out what happened at this juncture in time. The facts will come out once the investigation commences when the aircraft is recovered. The aircraft systems analyzed, the training and procedures evaluated and the error chain is recreated. I know the S92 and I trust its systems but systems do have limitations. I know how the training is done but training has limitations. I know how CRM works but it has its limitations. You know, an aircraft accident scenario can sometimes be attributed to one factor or to many. Only time will tell what factors added to this one. Pilots do their best, manufacturers work hard to keep systems reliable, trainers try to train to known and what if scenarios. BUT this industry will always have risks and we all accept that. I accept those risks as did everyone on that aircraft! I mourn their loss, I grieve for their families and friends and for their companies and I want answers too but I will wait for the accident investigation results and go forward from there.
AJ,
Why would one be at 50 KTS IAS in a 50-60 knot wind?
At least your rate of closure would keep you from running into the rig....but lack of fuel might become a problem.
Using Vtoss or 50 kts LDP on an ARA approach at MAP 0.75 NM is asking for trouble in any OEI situations and I sincerely hope your instructors do not teach that? Of course you can do it, but try it in 50-60 kts wind. How stable is your aircraft then.
At least your rate of closure would keep you from running into the rig....but lack of fuel might become a problem.
Last edited by SASless; 14th Mar 2009 at 17:22.
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They have found the wreck now...
Crashed helicopter found...
Crashed helicopter found...
Crashed helicopter found on sea floor, recovery planned
RCMP identify 10 of 17 killed in crash off Newfoundland's east coast
Last Updated: Saturday, March 14, 2009 | 5:08 PM NT
Mike Cunningham said a TSB team hopes to raise the sunken Cougar Helicopters aircraft early next week. (CBC)
The Transportation Safety Board has confirmed the location of an oil industry helicopter that crashed into the ocean southeast of Newfoundland on Thursday, killing 17 of 18 people on board, while authorities identified many of the dead.
"It looks like the fuselage is relatively intact," lead investigator Mike Cunningham told CBC News on Saturday afternoon, after an underwater remote-operated vehicle confirmed the location of a Cougar Helicopters aircraft that went down in the frigid Atlantic waters.
"It is laying on the bottom, on its side. The tail boom of the helicopter is broken off, but it is laying right beside the rest of the fuselage."
The bodies were not, as yet, located, said Cunningham, but families had been notified. The search for the missing turned to a rescue effort as the sun set Friday evening, about 34 hours after the shuttle, carrying oil industry workers, went into the water about 55 kilometres southeast of St. John's.
RCMP, meanwhile, gave the names of 10 of the deceased in Thursday's crash. The other families were "not prepared at this point of time to release the names of their loved ones, and we respect that," said Supt. Reg Reeves told reporters.
Reeves identified the following, all but one from Newfoundland and Labrador, as having died in the helicopter crash.
Only one person, Robert Decker, who works at the White Rose oilfield, survived the crash. He remains in critical but stable condition in hospital in St. John's and is being treated for multiple injuries.
Reeves said most family members are not willing to interviews at this time. "They would like to have some privacy and respect," Reeves told reporters.
'Fairly large anomaly' led to chopper find
Earlier in the day, Cunningham told a media briefing that a TSB sonar scan had found "a fairly large anomaly," which investigators believed was the Cougar Helicopters aircraft that crashed. At that time, authorities were hoping for a positive identification of the aircraft.
Cunningham said the initial sweep showed the ground floor was largely flat and featureless.
Underwater remote-operated vehicles were in the water Saturday afternoon to glean more information about the helicopter, which may still contain the bodies of the missing.
The TSB has assembled a team of 20 people, including five experts from the U.S. who specialize in helicopters, to work on the investigation.
Cunningham said Canadian military officials have volunteered their assistance.
He said the Atlantic Osprey supply ship was also carrying RCMP investigators as well as officials from Cougar Helicopters and Sikorsky, the chopper's manufacturer.
"If everything goes well, if Mother Nature co-operates with us, if nothing goes against us, we're hoping that we may lift that aircraft out of the water on Monday or Tuesday," Cunningham said.
He added that once the fuselage is recovered, the team will "very respectfully" remove the bodies from the fuselage.
RCMP identify 10 of 17 killed in crash off Newfoundland's east coast
Last Updated: Saturday, March 14, 2009 | 5:08 PM NT
Mike Cunningham said a TSB team hopes to raise the sunken Cougar Helicopters aircraft early next week. (CBC)
The Transportation Safety Board has confirmed the location of an oil industry helicopter that crashed into the ocean southeast of Newfoundland on Thursday, killing 17 of 18 people on board, while authorities identified many of the dead.
"It looks like the fuselage is relatively intact," lead investigator Mike Cunningham told CBC News on Saturday afternoon, after an underwater remote-operated vehicle confirmed the location of a Cougar Helicopters aircraft that went down in the frigid Atlantic waters.
"It is laying on the bottom, on its side. The tail boom of the helicopter is broken off, but it is laying right beside the rest of the fuselage."
The bodies were not, as yet, located, said Cunningham, but families had been notified. The search for the missing turned to a rescue effort as the sun set Friday evening, about 34 hours after the shuttle, carrying oil industry workers, went into the water about 55 kilometres southeast of St. John's.
RCMP, meanwhile, gave the names of 10 of the deceased in Thursday's crash. The other families were "not prepared at this point of time to release the names of their loved ones, and we respect that," said Supt. Reg Reeves told reporters.
Reeves identified the following, all but one from Newfoundland and Labrador, as having died in the helicopter crash.
- Peter Breen, 55, St. John's,
- Gary Corbett, 46, Conception Bay South,
- Wade Drake, 42, Fortune,
- Wade Duggan, 32, Witless Bay,
- Colin Henley, 38, St. John's,
- Ken Macrae, 476, Greenwood, N.S.,
- Derrick Mullowney, 51, Bay Bulls,
- Burch Nash, 44, Fortune,
- Paul Pike, 49, Spaniard's Bay,
- Allison Maher, 26, Mount Pearl, formerly of Aquaforte.
Only one person, Robert Decker, who works at the White Rose oilfield, survived the crash. He remains in critical but stable condition in hospital in St. John's and is being treated for multiple injuries.
Reeves said most family members are not willing to interviews at this time. "They would like to have some privacy and respect," Reeves told reporters.
'Fairly large anomaly' led to chopper find
Earlier in the day, Cunningham told a media briefing that a TSB sonar scan had found "a fairly large anomaly," which investigators believed was the Cougar Helicopters aircraft that crashed. At that time, authorities were hoping for a positive identification of the aircraft.
Cunningham said the initial sweep showed the ground floor was largely flat and featureless.
Underwater remote-operated vehicles were in the water Saturday afternoon to glean more information about the helicopter, which may still contain the bodies of the missing.
The TSB has assembled a team of 20 people, including five experts from the U.S. who specialize in helicopters, to work on the investigation.
Cunningham said Canadian military officials have volunteered their assistance.
He said the Atlantic Osprey supply ship was also carrying RCMP investigators as well as officials from Cougar Helicopters and Sikorsky, the chopper's manufacturer.
"If everything goes well, if Mother Nature co-operates with us, if nothing goes against us, we're hoping that we may lift that aircraft out of the water on Monday or Tuesday," Cunningham said.
He added that once the fuselage is recovered, the team will "very respectfully" remove the bodies from the fuselage.
GKaplan said
----
Even if you're too fast and/or you forget to arm, this kind of system does work.
It did a good job with Bond's 225 (aircraft flown into the water with landing gear down and floats not inflated -> next thing you know it's floating...thanks AFDS)
----
The aircraft I've flown with AFDS systems operated only when the floats were ARMED. The concept was to provide automatic flotation if the aircraft belly sensors were exposed to salt water and the pilot(s) did not push the float deployment button then the floats would be deployed.
When the floats were unarmed nothing would happen.
bb
----
Even if you're too fast and/or you forget to arm, this kind of system does work.
It did a good job with Bond's 225 (aircraft flown into the water with landing gear down and floats not inflated -> next thing you know it's floating...thanks AFDS)
----
The aircraft I've flown with AFDS systems operated only when the floats were ARMED. The concept was to provide automatic flotation if the aircraft belly sensors were exposed to salt water and the pilot(s) did not push the float deployment button then the floats would be deployed.
When the floats were unarmed nothing would happen.
bb
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crew names
from: http://vocm.com
RCMP Release Two More Names of Crash Victims
March 14, 2009
Two more families have consented to release the names of their family members were were onboard Cougar Flight 491. Earlier today 10 names were released during a press conference at RCMP Headquarters in White Hills. The names that have been released thus far include:
Tim Lanouette, a 48 years old, Comax, B.C.
First Officer Thomas Anyll, 46 years old, Langley , B.C.
Allison Maher, 26 years old, Aquafort
Peter Breen, 55 years old, St John's
Gary Corbett, 46 years old, Conception Bay South
Wade Drake, 42 years old, Fortune
Wade Duggan, 32 years old, Witless Bay
Colin Henley, 38 years old, St John's
Ken MaCrae, 47, Greenwood, Nova Scotia
Derrick Mullowney, 51 years old, Bay Bulls
Burch Nash, 44 years old, Fortune
Paul Pike, 49 years old, Shearstown.
So far 12 names out of the 18 people who were onboard the helicopter have been released.
RCMP Release Two More Names of Crash Victims
March 14, 2009
Two more families have consented to release the names of their family members were were onboard Cougar Flight 491. Earlier today 10 names were released during a press conference at RCMP Headquarters in White Hills. The names that have been released thus far include:
Tim Lanouette, a 48 years old, Comax, B.C.
First Officer Thomas Anyll, 46 years old, Langley , B.C.
Allison Maher, 26 years old, Aquafort
Peter Breen, 55 years old, St John's
Gary Corbett, 46 years old, Conception Bay South
Wade Drake, 42 years old, Fortune
Wade Duggan, 32 years old, Witless Bay
Colin Henley, 38 years old, St John's
Ken MaCrae, 47, Greenwood, Nova Scotia
Derrick Mullowney, 51 years old, Bay Bulls
Burch Nash, 44 years old, Fortune
Paul Pike, 49 years old, Shearstown.
So far 12 names out of the 18 people who were onboard the helicopter have been released.
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Automatic Floats
I have had a hell of a job convincing folk that the AW139 automatic floats should be operated in the way they were designed to be operated ie. ARMED whenever over conducting (extended) flight over water.
There are those that come for their 139 type rating who have previously been told that floats (on their previous types) should only be armed below a certain airspeed and don't want to change that technique when they learn that the 139 has a different design..... they don't seem to get it .,..... the 139's system was designed to be operated that way and if you don't arm them when over water you may invite catastrophe ..... and you go against the RFM.
What say you now?
Please don't revist the 'inadvertant inflation in flight argument'. This has NEVER happened on the 139 but there are quite a few examples where a truly automatic system may have helped to save lives.
What are you going to go with, something that has never happened before or something that has? Get your calculators out and do the maths on 'probability'.
G
There are those that come for their 139 type rating who have previously been told that floats (on their previous types) should only be armed below a certain airspeed and don't want to change that technique when they learn that the 139 has a different design..... they don't seem to get it .,..... the 139's system was designed to be operated that way and if you don't arm them when over water you may invite catastrophe ..... and you go against the RFM.
What say you now?
Please don't revist the 'inadvertant inflation in flight argument'. This has NEVER happened on the 139 but there are quite a few examples where a truly automatic system may have helped to save lives.
What are you going to go with, something that has never happened before or something that has? Get your calculators out and do the maths on 'probability'.
G
Geoffers,
I completely agree with you REF: 139 float system, but there will always be an element of "it only has to happen once" among folks that have only experience of the older systems to deter them from arming the floats at cruise speeds....
Condolences to all those who lost their lives in that tragic S92 accident.
I completely agree with you REF: 139 float system, but there will always be an element of "it only has to happen once" among folks that have only experience of the older systems to deter them from arming the floats at cruise speeds....
Condolences to all those who lost their lives in that tragic S92 accident.
Slightly off the original thread but for the old timers, what have been previous consequences of inadvertant float deployment at cruise speeds on the older types ?
RIP to those lost in this tragic S92 incident.
RIP to those lost in this tragic S92 incident.
This statement, if its really true, maybe should stop the discussion about the floats arming procedures:
Hey Newsmeister, in the breifing this afternoon the TSB said they found one sponson floating with fuel tank included and the covering off the other sponson floating on the ocean thats where the main floatation bags are located on the S-92 so that explains why the rest sank, he must have hit really hard to tear them off, we should know more in a couple of days for sure.
I found this in the comments in the link of post #120. If they really have hit the water that hard, it would probably make no sense, whether the flotationsystem was activated or not.
skadi
Hey Newsmeister, in the breifing this afternoon the TSB said they found one sponson floating with fuel tank included and the covering off the other sponson floating on the ocean thats where the main floatation bags are located on the S-92 so that explains why the rest sank, he must have hit really hard to tear them off, we should know more in a couple of days for sure.
I found this in the comments in the link of post #120. If they really have hit the water that hard, it would probably make no sense, whether the flotationsystem was activated or not.
skadi
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It is right that the sponsons are designed to seperate from the the main body of the aircraft with a hard landing (which would explain why the aircraft failed to remain upright or even float properly), but what defines a landing hard enough for this to happen.
With regard to the arming of floats below 80kts, I believe they should be on at all times while over water.
All thoughts and prayers to all connected to this tragedy
pv
With regard to the arming of floats below 80kts, I believe they should be on at all times while over water.
All thoughts and prayers to all connected to this tragedy
pv