Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 48
Posts: 5,730
The upshot is that most operators have insurance requirements which mean that you are unemployable for most tasks until you have at least 500 hours. Your best bet would be part time work doing pleasure flying (in which case, I hope you have another career on which to fall back) or get the extra rating to become an instructor (again, part time). You will have to be prepared to go anywhere in the country if not the world. To get the hours, best bet - join the services; you're young enough.
Otherwise, it will not just be determination and passion you will need but also a lot of money!!!
There have been numerous threads on this very issue and there was a sticky - (Heliport, please can we have the training sticky back?)
However, things may pick up in the future and we may return to the times when the offshore operators were recruiting fresh CPLs as co-pilots but these days may be far off.
Iam from Germany and soon to be an commercial pilot!
And as every pilot wants ,I would like to do this for a living......no that sounds wrong ... I HAVE TO DO THIS FOR A LIVING!!!! Its the only thing I ever wanted to do!
Today a flying buddy of mine and me called some german Helicopter companies and asked : " if there would be an job opening at your company what would be the requirement" the question was asked very theoreticaly but the first thing they said : " sorry guys no job opening" which was not our question ... but the sum of all answers was that there are no open jobs!
So my question is : Is that a problem all around the world or just germany/europe???!
Iam not comitted to germany so would it be a good idea to look all around the world ???
Opportunities are quite good in the UK and Ireland at the minute, though if you are newly qualified you are in the "Catch 22" position of needing good experience to get a job, and needing a good job to get the experience. Have you considered the instructor route? maybe not exactly what you want to do, but a good way to build experience and they are starting to become scarce over here, so pay rates are starting to creep up, not before time! The other alternative is to spend lots of money on an IR and look for a co-pilot job in the off-shore industry or maybe on a large corporate helicopter. If you are determined enough you will get there....
Here's another route to fulfilling your dream. Bear with me... first, stop your training right now! That's right, don't get that German commercial certificate. Instead, sign up for a J-1 Visa with an American school like HAI (you see, once you have a foreign commercial certificate you are no longer eligible for this Visa). Get your US commercial and CFI certificate instead (and the JAA certificate, too if you want), then work in the US as a flight instructor to gain some experience. There are quite a few job openings here right now. And if you're lucky you'll meet a nice corn-fed American gal to marry and you can stay here as long as you like. Bob's yer uncle, Nellie's yer aunt!
Thanx guys for your quick answers.... I have thought about instructing ... but I dont know how good ( for teacher and student ) it would be because I dont think a 300TT Instructor would be very self confident for this job ?! especially in cases ...lets say letting little ppl dudes do practice autos ( hopefully Iam wrong) Because if I dont get a job as a "normal" comercial pilot ,Its Instructortime ....the only problem with instructing is that I can only fly the R44 ....may be getting an H300/500 rating could be helpful???
IFR ...hell no ..the buddy of mine i have been talking about in the first statement is going to do this with eurocopter in donauwoerth. Well its very expensive ....and I think its not my kind of flying...at least not yet!
Flying on the Island .... sounds good ...a instructer of mine is starting over there soon and he is very excited about it....but driving at the wrong side of the road....I dont know... just kidding ...would be glad to fly in her majesties sky.
I dont think you can go down the instructor route in the US now, anyway. You must not have more than 150 hours for the J1 - commercial rating or not - from what I recall.
I have heard a couple of pilots getting positive responses from the border patrol in Germany. Have you tried them? I've no idea what the hours requirement is for them.
R44 time will become more valuable, (if you do go the Instructor route), with Robinson putting out about 10 R44's for 2 R22's. Apparently Frank is still talking about a cut down version of the R44 for training purposes.
It makes me a little sad when I see pilots telling others to get their instructor rating to build up experience. If I had it my way, I would not allow a pilot to have an instructor rating with anything less than 1000 hours. It's a strange industry where we allow pilots with no real experience at all to be able to teach and pass on what they really don't know to others. I know many will dispute this but I also know many believe in this. I have actually witnessed young inexperienced instrustors attempting to get themselves out of situations they have been put in by their students. Very frightening indeed with often disasterous outcomes. So my advice to our German friend, don't call or email, actually go and visit the companies as it is often a case of "if the face fits". You are merely a voice over the phone so go to the trouble of paying them a visit. You might be surprised. AV8
IAV82, I understand where you are coming from, but that is the nature of this industry, where those with little experience end up teaching, but part of the reason is that there is very little incentive to be a career instructor because of pay and conditions etc. the best jobs are ME IFR and thats where the experienced pilots tend to end up. However because of this there is now less and less instructors coming through the system and it is starting to have an effect, and pay is starting to improve and good schools are offering incentives to stay (turbine ratings etc) Okay, instructing is not for everyone, you do have to have certain qualities but I think its unfair to say that anyone with less than 1000 hrs shouldn't instruct, i've flown with some very capable and enthusiastic instructors with a lot less, we all have to start somewhere... Friday, As to the FAA route, works for some but my advice is,if your long term plan is to live and work in europe, then train and stay here, pay rates in the USA are still low and things are improving fairly well here. Keep at it, BC
>>>Apparently Frank is still talking about a cut down version of the R44 for training purposes.<<<<
Ahh, not picking on ya, but what exactly could be removed, other than possible the rear two seat cushions? It's already pretty well cut down !
Yes, Frank explains to anybody that listens the R44 should be used for training. He compares it to the C172 replacing the C152 in the training role. He wasn't very sympathetic to the folks pointing out it costs two times the 22
>>>Apparently Frank is still talking about a cut down version of the R44 for training purposes.<<<<
Ahh, not picking on ya, but what exactly could be removed, other than possible the rear two seat cushions? It's already pretty well cut down !
Yes, Frank explains to anybody that listens the R44 should be used for training. He compares it to the C172 replacing the C152 in the training role. He wasn't very sympathetic to the folks pointing out it costs two times the 22
Hoss, no offence taken, just repeating what a Robinson guy said at the safety course a little while ago... I've no idea what he'd take out, maybe it's stall tactics of some kind, dunno...
(Apparently the R66 is going to use a Rolls-Royce engine and be test flown next year to compete with the popular light turbines but that's another story )
It makes me a little sad when I see pilots telling others to get their instructor rating to build up experience. If I had it my way, I would not allow a pilot to have an instructor rating with anything less than 1000 hours. It's a strange industry where we allow pilots with no real experience at all to be able to teach and pass on what they really don't know to others. I know many will dispute this but I also know many believe in this. I have actually witnessed young inexperienced instrustors attempting to get themselves out of situations they have been put in by their students. Very frightening indeed with often disasterous outcomes. So my advice to our German friend, don't call or email, actually go and visit the companies as it is often a case of "if the face fits". You are merely a voice over the phone so go to the trouble of paying them a visit. You might be surprised. AV8
IAV 82,
Allow me to gently disagree with you. I recognise that more experience is likely to make a better pilot/instructor, but 1000 hours is kinda over the top, don't you think? My feeling is that a low time guy or gal is likely to really step up to the plate if they're an instructor...I've been a military instructor for quite some time and I don't think I ever knew the aircraft or the theory as well as when I was expected to teach it. On the flying side, yeah, more experience is better, but the young bucks need to star somewhere.
Helopat I'm glad someone was reading the threads. As I said, not everyone will agree but please understand the point I make. It is not ability, motivation, professionalism or dedication that is usually ever in question with low hour instructors, it's as you said, experience. It's the ability to have the experience to get yourself and your student out of situations that they often put you in and they are the kind of situations that you will never normally put yourself in as a pilot. Now unless you know what it feels like to over pitch an aircraft, to land and take off downwind, or an understanding through experience to fly out of whatever bad situation comes along, how will you pass that knowledge on to others???? In many professions, the teachers are those with the knowledge and wisdom gained from years of experience yet we allow those with little experience to be the teachers. And yes, many do a good job and scare themselves many times in the process but if you honestly had the choice of learning from someone with 10 000 hours and a lot of commercial experience and training or someone trying to get a break with 400 hours, what would it be. Instructors should have experience and credibility, that's the only point I make and I apreciate your debate and point of view. AV8
In Germany, Austria, Switserland you won't find jobs without having at least 1500 hours and at least 200 turbine. The normal way is to become flughelfer and every now and then they might give you some flight-time, ferrying. It takes very long that way but it's the way it's done. Most jobs however are taken by ex-military (or even active) pilots.
The USA route is frankly the only way to go to get hours. The discussion about low-time instructors is BS, it's the way it's done in the US and has been for decades.
So my advice, don't do your CPL practical flight test yet. Go to HAI get your FAA CPL/CFI/IR/CFII and do your JAA CPL flight test there as well. You'll have just over a year to build up hours as a CFI which will most likely give you over a 1000.
(By the way for JAA FI you need a minimum of 250 hours)
It is not ability, motivation, professionalism or dedication that is usually ever in question with low hour instructors, it's as you said, experience.
<> Now unless you know what it feels like to over pitch an aircraft, to land and take off downwind, or an understanding through experience to fly out of whatever bad situation comes along, how will you pass that knowledge on to others???? In many professions, the teachers are those with the knowledge and wisdom gained from years of experience yet we allow those with little experience to be the teachers. And yes, many do a good job and scare themselves many times in the process but if you honestly had the choice of learning from someone with 10 000 hours and a lot of commercial experience and training or someone trying to get a break with 400 hours, what would it be.
Well said, IAV82. I totally agree with you.
I had a chance to learn from a 5000 hour pilot, i did most of my training with him. I propably didn't understand it back then, but have realized it later that learning from the guy with good experience from different kind of flying jobs gave me a good way forward. I think i was "more ready" to jump in myself for the first time than i would've been without his tips from a real world. And i'm sure "the extra knowladge" he had compared to less experienced instructors have saved me from many troubles later on.
Someone with 400 hours can surely teach you how to fly a helicopter, but only that 10 000 hour guy can teach you how to do it for a living.
Finnrotor The last word in your message says it all, "living". All instructors can teach you the basics on how to fly a helicopter the way the book says, but having a few tricks of the trade up your sleeve as well, that will more often than not get you back home safely each night. And Hillerbee, I know they have been doing it in the US for decades, as with many other countries, but try not to miss the point of the discussion. No right or wrong here ol' chap. Keep in mind also that 1000 hrs instructor time gives you less than a third of that as hands on experience as the instructor is the passenger most of the time. Thats the credibility side!! There is also an old saying that many would have heard: " I wish I was as good a pilot as I thought I was when I had 1000 hours". AV8
I was anwering the guys question. And as said there are simply no jobs for low-time pilots in German speaking countries. How you get the hours doesn't seem to bother the employers.
In many professions, the teachers are those with the knowledge and wisdom gained from years of experience yet we allow those with little experience to be the teachers. And yes, many do a good job and scare themselves many times in the process but if you honestly had the choice of learning from someone with 10 000 hours and a lot of commercial experience and training or someone trying to get a break with 400 hours, what would it be. Instructors should have experience and credibility, that's the only point I make and I apreciate your debate and point of view. AV8
.........Also all those bad habits they have picked up during those 10000 hours and either forgotten the basics or can't be bothered to teach the 'noob' said basics!! How do you get experience if you don't fly! Its easy to say that you wouldn't allow anyone the chance to teach if they don't have over 1000 hours. Do you remember when you were there!! Being a flight instructor myself, I have had some great instruction from experienced pilots, but also I have seen some really stupid things from experienced instructors too, and high time at that!! Things that even if I knew how to teach, I wouldn't. I have learnt so much from teaching that I will be forever grateful for the chance. I think that if I had to go and take my driving test again I would rather learn the basics. The more I drove the more I learnt. You can't teach everything at once!
... I HAVE TO DO THIS FOR A LIVING!!!! Its the only thing I ever wanted to do!
... but the sum of all answers was that there are no open jobs!
....the only problem with instructing is that I can only fly the R44 ....may be getting an H300/500 rating could be helpful???
