Bell 407 vs AS-350 B2/B3
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Speaking of manufacturer's tech reps, Bob Pearson, the Bell Helicopter tech rep for Alaska is terrific. He stops in regularly, even though our L4 has been squawk free for the two years we have had it. We are going to a 407 later this fall, and Bob Pearson was just in to discuss that transition, and will return when our ship arrives. He has also arranged for his counterpart to meet us at the completion center, and go over the software on the laptop for the 407's FADEC.
Join Date: Nov 2004
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I'll have the B3 over the "4-0-Lemon" any day
Not saying that I like the service I get from Turbomeca, but the product is great.
rotors88-The 407 might be more reliable than the B3 in India, but definately not in Africa or Aus?
But hay-some of us like Eurocopter and some of us like Bell
The dual hyraulic B3 MAUW goes up to 2370kg.
Just my 2c
Not saying that I like the service I get from Turbomeca, but the product is great.
rotors88-The 407 might be more reliable than the B3 in India, but definately not in Africa or Aus?
But hay-some of us like Eurocopter and some of us like Bell
The dual hyraulic B3 MAUW goes up to 2370kg.
Just my 2c
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TMY I totally agree with you. The B3 outstrips the 407 any day. I recently took a B3 up to 10500', 80% fuel on board, 6 pax plus pilot......... brought her into the hover, pulled 100% onto the FLI and she climbed in the hover at 650 fpm. Outside temp was 16 degrees celcius. I challenge any 407 to do that..........
Not to mention, the B3 is so much more better ergonimically designed than the 407. I don't remember being uncomfortable ever in the B3. the 407, is another story.
Helijedi
(Darth Vader's a pussy...)
Not to mention, the B3 is so much more better ergonimically designed than the 407. I don't remember being uncomfortable ever in the B3. the 407, is another story.
Helijedi
(Darth Vader's a pussy...)
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I can only confirm your statement about performance. The last two fire season I was flying the AS350B3 and was working side by side with the B 407, Lama, SA316, AS350B2 and 350FX at different altitudes and temperatures.
B3 vs. Lama/SA316
If it’s not to terrible hot and besides flying a circle around the Lama, the B3 will do a bit better up to about 9000 ft. SA316 is no match against the B3.
B3 vs. B2/FX:
The B2 dies at altitude and temperature. The FX does perform well but still not close to a B3 and for the Fuel consumption and speed I had an interesting comparison between the FX and B3.
Long story short, we both topped off fuel and flying from Fort St. John, BC to Fort Nelson, BC. The weather wasn’t all that great and he had more local knowledge of the area so I followed the FX all the way to Fort Nelson. We were cruising about 110kt IAS and the FX pulling MCP 94% TQ vs. B3 only 70 to 75 % TQ. Pulling MCP in the B3 gives you an IAS of 125 – 130Kt. In Fort Nelson we both topped off again and surprisingly the FX burned 16 liters more (and a black tail boom
). I know cruising at 70 % reduces the fuel consumption, but at MCP I would have been a bit faster too.
407 Vs. B3
The 407 is very fast at MSL and looks like handles very well and great to longline, but as soon as you get some elevation and temperature she is fading away. Put a different motor in a 407 or give that engine more air and besides being a four bladed Jet Ranger she probably would do ok.
:-D
B3 vs. Lama/SA316
If it’s not to terrible hot and besides flying a circle around the Lama, the B3 will do a bit better up to about 9000 ft. SA316 is no match against the B3.
B3 vs. B2/FX:
The B2 dies at altitude and temperature. The FX does perform well but still not close to a B3 and for the Fuel consumption and speed I had an interesting comparison between the FX and B3.
Long story short, we both topped off fuel and flying from Fort St. John, BC to Fort Nelson, BC. The weather wasn’t all that great and he had more local knowledge of the area so I followed the FX all the way to Fort Nelson. We were cruising about 110kt IAS and the FX pulling MCP 94% TQ vs. B3 only 70 to 75 % TQ. Pulling MCP in the B3 gives you an IAS of 125 – 130Kt. In Fort Nelson we both topped off again and surprisingly the FX burned 16 liters more (and a black tail boom
). I know cruising at 70 % reduces the fuel consumption, but at MCP I would have been a bit faster too. 407 Vs. B3
The 407 is very fast at MSL and looks like handles very well and great to longline, but as soon as you get some elevation and temperature she is fading away. Put a different motor in a 407 or give that engine more air and besides being a four bladed Jet Ranger she probably would do ok.
:-D
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Feedback: 407 and 350B2/B3
My fellow pilots,
We recently sold our B407 and looking for a suitable replacement. We have narrowed down to either a B350B2 or B3. Our mission is corporate/private and speed, smoothness, passenger comfort (and baggage capacity) and safety. Can you provide feedback on both models compared to the B407? On a personal note, I will miss our 407 dearly but alas, that chapter is closed
!
How does the 350 compare to the 407 in autoration, cruise speed, pilot feedback/maneuverability etc? Any feedback would be appreciated! Is there a big difference between the B2 and B3?
Much appreciated!
We recently sold our B407 and looking for a suitable replacement. We have narrowed down to either a B350B2 or B3. Our mission is corporate/private and speed, smoothness, passenger comfort (and baggage capacity) and safety. Can you provide feedback on both models compared to the B407? On a personal note, I will miss our 407 dearly but alas, that chapter is closed
! How does the 350 compare to the 407 in autoration, cruise speed, pilot feedback/maneuverability etc? Any feedback would be appreciated! Is there a big difference between the B2 and B3?
Much appreciated!
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I have flown only the b2.
I am quite sure the 407 is faster and probably a bit smoother.
The b3 i am sure has more power especially at altitude and hot temps.
The 407 in standard config has probably more room for baggage. The b2 or b3 have the option of the squirrel cheeks that add more room to the heli since the tail (or rear) baggage compartement is not quite big.
I am also quite sure the b3 has a higher fuel consumtion than the 407 and maybe the 407 uses abouz the same amount of fuel than the b2.
Cheers
bitmonx
I am quite sure the 407 is faster and probably a bit smoother.
The b3 i am sure has more power especially at altitude and hot temps.
The 407 in standard config has probably more room for baggage. The b2 or b3 have the option of the squirrel cheeks that add more room to the heli since the tail (or rear) baggage compartement is not quite big.
I am also quite sure the b3 has a higher fuel consumtion than the 407 and maybe the 407 uses abouz the same amount of fuel than the b2.
Cheers
bitmonx
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I fly both B3 and 407,
I my vieuw the 407 is the better corporate machine with the smoothest ride and a better fuel burn per mile,
On the other hand the B3 has a nicer cabin (but will only seat 6 in normal configuration) with everybody together and has the better fadec of the 2 with a bit more power hot and high and the B3 is also slightly better in autorotation
hope this helps
I my vieuw the 407 is the better corporate machine with the smoothest ride and a better fuel burn per mile,
On the other hand the B3 has a nicer cabin (but will only seat 6 in normal configuration) with everybody together and has the better fadec of the 2 with a bit more power hot and high and the B3 is also slightly better in autorotation
hope this helps
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They're both good ships from a pilot's point of view, each with their own benefits. My only concern would be the operation of them (i.e. maintenance, spares, etc) - my choice would always be Bell unless you have a compelling reason such as hot or high with the B3. I have flown and operated both.
Phil
Phil
Consider the L-4
If you are looking to get into a different machine, the 206L-4 should be considered as well. Its operating cost will be significantly lower than the 407. The 206L-4 has better authoritative characteristics than the A-Stars. The A-Stars have a 5-10 KIAS speed advantage.
Thread Starter
Heli-Pilot 1, may I ask why you are changing brands? was it the price of the new 407 or?
According to the type of operation corporate/private and speed, smoothness, passenger comfort (and baggage capacity) and safety that you mentioned I think the Bell 407 better in all areas.
The B3 is better as aerial work horse no argue there, it lifts more externally and you have better option for mirrors, floor window and such and there are more of the new camera mounts for it if you doing lot of aerial filming.
But for passenger transport, sightseeing fast and smooth the B-407 wins and is the second best lifter after B3..
and one more, the crash-worthiness of AS-350 is just crap
According to the type of operation corporate/private and speed, smoothness, passenger comfort (and baggage capacity) and safety that you mentioned I think the Bell 407 better in all areas.
The B3 is better as aerial work horse no argue there, it lifts more externally and you have better option for mirrors, floor window and such and there are more of the new camera mounts for it if you doing lot of aerial filming.
But for passenger transport, sightseeing fast and smooth the B-407 wins and is the second best lifter after B3..
and one more, the crash-worthiness of AS-350 is just crap
The ecureuil series wasn't really made for full size guys.
I am 190cm and my left knee hits the vertical instrument panel.
And I like my workplace being separated from lunch eating passengers.
Love the 407
I am 190cm and my left knee hits the vertical instrument panel.
And I like my workplace being separated from lunch eating passengers.
Love the 407
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I have flown both, the 407 and the B2. However, why does one want to trade away from a 407? The cabin if the 407 is slightly bigger, the aircraft is faster, and quite maneuverable. The Ecureuil is a workhorse, but the crashworthiness is poor. Besides, the customer support with Bell is much better. So, why Eurocopter?
I have flown the 407, the 350B, B2 & B3. There is no doubt that the 350 series even without the cheeks has maybe 3 times more luggage space than a 407. All seats are forward facing with more leg room than a 407 ever had. The B3 is the fastest of them all & uses the most fuel, depending on temp & amsl 195 to 220lph @ sea level & 160-170lph above 10,000'. The B2 uses less fuel than a 407 but can do more in HOGE & HIGE at slightly less top end speed. As for crash worthy the 350 shell is outstanding for survivability. I am here today because of that only. Thank You Aerospatiale for giving me a new lease on life thanks to Your excellent crash worthiness airframe.
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B3E
Great thread gents,
I have been talking to Eurocopter, Bell etc about a new machine, so the thoughts of long hour pilots are of great value.
Eurocopter did land on Everest (according to their website, and they wouldn't lie ???
).
Here is the "sell" on the B3, but apparently the B3E is the way to go !Check the Eurocopter website (which the boys at Eurocopter in AUS recommended for me, I am just $3 million short of the $3 million cost).
Making the best even better !
The high-performance member of the Ecureuil family, the AS350 B3 outclasses all other single engine helicopters for performance, versatility, safety and competitive acquisition and maintenance costs. It excels in hot conditions and very high altitudes, and broke records when a standard production aircraft landed on the top of Mount Everest in 2005 (altitude: 29,029 ft / 8,848 m).
Cheers,
Arrrj
I have been talking to Eurocopter, Bell etc about a new machine, so the thoughts of long hour pilots are of great value.
Eurocopter did land on Everest (according to their website, and they wouldn't lie ???
).Here is the "sell" on the B3, but apparently the B3E is the way to go !Check the Eurocopter website (which the boys at Eurocopter in AUS recommended for me, I am just $3 million short of the $3 million cost
).Making the best even better !
The high-performance member of the Ecureuil family, the AS350 B3 outclasses all other single engine helicopters for performance, versatility, safety and competitive acquisition and maintenance costs. It excels in hot conditions and very high altitudes, and broke records when a standard production aircraft landed on the top of Mount Everest in 2005 (altitude: 29,029 ft / 8,848 m).
Cheers,
Arrrj
Last edited by Arrrj; 28th Jul 2011 at 05:57. Reason: Typo
Not trying to throw the spanner in the works, but the companny I worked for a while back was looking at trading all their B3s for Koalas - mainly because of the waiting time for service from EC... Went so far as going to the factory in Italy and doing the whole shin-dig with our chief pilot and engineer...Unfortunately, with the finiancial woooooops, it never happened
...... I have no idea about the Koala or the 407, but I know the 350 backwards and I love her....
...... I have no idea about the Koala or the 407, but I know the 350 backwards and I love her....
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I understand the issue when asked about B3 and 407 but we cannot forget the Agusta AW 119 Koala... very powerfull PT6, 150 kts cruising speed and take more passenger than the B3 and the 407. Also it takes 150 kgs in the baggage room and is a very very confortable helicopter to fly...
Seriously, have a look into the koala.... it's a outstanding machine to fly!!
Seriously, have a look into the koala.... it's a outstanding machine to fly!!
no doubt the Koala is very sexy & sleek. But ask Yourself why don't they work them hot n' high??? Simply they run out of puff. Also You are looking at almost double the operating & purchase cost. So a very expensive machine.
Last edited by Vertical Freedom; 30th Jul 2011 at 03:23.
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Looks like we have settled on a 350B2. She is a beautiful 2008 with a stunning interior but still no 407! I've never flown a B2 so I'll give my feedback in a couple of weeks.
Our firm has a policy of purchasing 2-3 year old aircraft and resell them 2-3 years later. The 407’s time came up and surprisingly, she sold in less than 30 days. What recession?!?! We’ve tried to replace her with another 407 but the market is too high for us at the moment.
Thanks for the feedback!
Our firm has a policy of purchasing 2-3 year old aircraft and resell them 2-3 years later. The 407’s time came up and surprisingly, she sold in less than 30 days. What recession?!?! We’ve tried to replace her with another 407 but the market is too high for us at the moment.
Thanks for the feedback!