SARH to go
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Poland
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Fund the MoD to be the full service provider (that should go down well with some here
) and take another look in 10 years time.
) and take another look in 10 years time.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oop North
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the RAF/RN continue providing SAR say with the Merlin we get a SAR force that has an aircraft with:-
a. A better range than the S92
b. A better lifting capacity than the S92
c. A better radar than the S92
uuhmm which one to choose? S92 or Merlin
332M
a. A better range than the S92
b. A better lifting capacity than the S92
c. A better radar than the S92
uuhmm which one to choose? S92 or Merlin
332M
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Somewhere
Age: 49
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
332M
I think you are missing the point the whole programme as it has been rumoured has finicial difficulties how can anybody afford the merlin as it nearly double the cost to buy and to operate than the S-92.
You are right about the 3 thing mentioned is it worth waisting taxpayers money when we can wait to see how good the S-92 really is.
AgustaWestland has not the best track record when coming to customer support and the next question what about reliabilty as it has been mentioned the Portugies, Canadians and danes have problems keeping the machines in the air due to lack of spare parts and the operating costs of the Merlin.
Is this the machine the Uk really want as a SAR platform wether it be civil or Military?
I think you are missing the point the whole programme as it has been rumoured has finicial difficulties how can anybody afford the merlin as it nearly double the cost to buy and to operate than the S-92.
You are right about the 3 thing mentioned is it worth waisting taxpayers money when we can wait to see how good the S-92 really is.
AgustaWestland has not the best track record when coming to customer support and the next question what about reliabilty as it has been mentioned the Portugies, Canadians and danes have problems keeping the machines in the air due to lack of spare parts and the operating costs of the Merlin.
Is this the machine the Uk really want as a SAR platform wether it be civil or Military?
Lt Fubar - they will fly for more than 10 years if they have appropriate airframe/rotor and avionics modifications - the airframe hours are very low compared to many S-61s in service. Even if they don't get an upgrade, the Out of Service Date is 2017 at the earliest.
I have been told the Merlin cabin is excellent for SAR but the fact remains that the trend towards higher disc loading for modern helicopters gives fierce downwash. A SAR helicopter is simply a delivery system for a winchman - if he cannot do his (often very difficult and dangerous) job properly because he and the casualty are sitting in a man-made tropical storm, then you have to say the important part of the job has been ignored.
I know the easy answer is to hover higher but you can't hover accurately without references and the higher you go the further you are away from them which degrades the stability of the winching platform and again makes the winchman's job more difficult/dangerous.
Skyepup - that observation was made by a senior RAF officer in 2002 or 3 at the SARForce conference - everything the MCA did was clearly with the aim of becoming more like the USCG, hence the desire to control all the SAR assets.
I have been told the Merlin cabin is excellent for SAR but the fact remains that the trend towards higher disc loading for modern helicopters gives fierce downwash. A SAR helicopter is simply a delivery system for a winchman - if he cannot do his (often very difficult and dangerous) job properly because he and the casualty are sitting in a man-made tropical storm, then you have to say the important part of the job has been ignored.
I know the easy answer is to hover higher but you can't hover accurately without references and the higher you go the further you are away from them which degrades the stability of the winching platform and again makes the winchman's job more difficult/dangerous.
Skyepup - that observation was made by a senior RAF officer in 2002 or 3 at the SARForce conference - everything the MCA did was clearly with the aim of becoming more like the USCG, hence the desire to control all the SAR assets.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: England
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is an interesting thread but people seem determined to slag the S92. Why? The S92 is only a new S61 or Sea King after all. New technology makes things safer for the operators.
In all this time people have pointed out the failings of the S92 but no one has mentioned 'Black Monday' the day when all bar 1 of the RAF Sea King force was 'offstate'. Or the fact that the Sea King 3A took years to get radios that worked, a workable doppler and handling that felt like you were actually flying the thing.
The S92 is not perfect yet, but it could well be the future.
In all this time people have pointed out the failings of the S92 but no one has mentioned 'Black Monday' the day when all bar 1 of the RAF Sea King force was 'offstate'. Or the fact that the Sea King 3A took years to get radios that worked, a workable doppler and handling that felt like you were actually flying the thing.
The S92 is not perfect yet, but it could well be the future.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: West coast Australia :)
Posts: 238
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ive kept quiet in all these discussions, but how about this thought.
Get a B model of the 92, five blades (lower disk loading), and a better fuel tank layout. Make an actual SAR variant with input from the day to day users (SAR crews), NOT company managment. I am no designer, nor managment/accountant type and its just a thought but surely that would make things better if not solve many problems?
If on the interim contract Sikorsky got their act together and actually gave us the 92 operators asked for, then it may well be a great SAR machine. Apparently Sikorsky canvased many operators aking what they want in the next design of machine. Five blades being one of those, but Sikorsky hasn't quite followed the canvassed opinion.
Anyway like I said, just a thought.
Get a B model of the 92, five blades (lower disk loading), and a better fuel tank layout. Make an actual SAR variant with input from the day to day users (SAR crews), NOT company managment. I am no designer, nor managment/accountant type and its just a thought but surely that would make things better if not solve many problems?
If on the interim contract Sikorsky got their act together and actually gave us the 92 operators asked for, then it may well be a great SAR machine. Apparently Sikorsky canvased many operators aking what they want in the next design of machine. Five blades being one of those, but Sikorsky hasn't quite followed the canvassed opinion.
Anyway like I said, just a thought.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On this one I am with Crab the aircraft is a delivery system to get the winchman to a casualty, however the cabin of that delivery system must be big enough to look after more than one seriously injured casualty.
It is extremely worrying, if it is true, that the bidders have been told to bid only on a split fleet of large and medium size helicopters, because there simply is not a medium size helicopter that is up to the job. They are all built for speed, twitchy in the hover and low cabin height having been designed round people sat in seats. Unfortunately, now that the MCA appear to have given the green light to the AW139 no one appears to be able to stop the ball rolling. I feel it will be regretted at some stage in the future.
S92's get my vote, or certainly aircraft big enough to continue the good work that has been achieved over the years.
It is extremely worrying, if it is true, that the bidders have been told to bid only on a split fleet of large and medium size helicopters, because there simply is not a medium size helicopter that is up to the job. They are all built for speed, twitchy in the hover and low cabin height having been designed round people sat in seats. Unfortunately, now that the MCA appear to have given the green light to the AW139 no one appears to be able to stop the ball rolling. I feel it will be regretted at some stage in the future.
S92's get my vote, or certainly aircraft big enough to continue the good work that has been achieved over the years.
Do you believe that Sikorsky would go through all the design studies, research and certification for a five bladed head just for the sake of a dozen or so SAR machines. They would if somebody was paying for it, but they're not. A decade ago I was talking to people at Westlands on ways to make the EH101 Heliliner more suitable for the North Sea. They weren't interested, the market wasn't big enough. The 330 prototypes suffered from horrendous viabration way back in 1966 and they were at the point of cutting metal for a five bladed head when some burk developed the barbeque plate that brought it down to an acceptable level. It was cheaper, a lot cheaper. It then took nearly forty years to put five blades on a 225. If the 330 and 332 had five blades in the beginning they would have been unstoppable. We can all dream about what would make a particular helicopter ideal but on the whole all utility helicopters are jack-of-all-trades, master of none.
Bigglesbutler - I stand to be corrected by a TP but whilst increasing the number of blades will change your rotor solidity ratio, the only way of changing the disc loading is to make the blades longer as it is the swept area of the disc divided by the AUM of the aircraft.
To my knowledge, the S92 doesn't have a downwash problem (certainly not when compared to the Merlin) and by all accounts is a good SAR machine already (despite the range issues) and will be better in the Mk2 whenever that comes out. I believe that Sikorsky are looking at creative ways of increasing the fuel load carried internally without compromising on the workspace in the cabin.
The 139 on the other hand is always going to be hampered by its cabin size and, I gather, is not quite so popular on the front line as had been expected.
The aircraft on the interim contract were assessed for suitability by the MCA's aviation consultant who is a one man band with only one SAR tour in Hong Kong in the 70s on Whirlwinds. Unfortunately, he has also been involved with the SARH IPT and believes the rearcrew involved (experts in their field with honours degrees and MScs) shouldn't even have been allowed to take part in the SARH proceedings, even though they were the guys who actually checked the bidders claims aginst the aircraft specs and found all sorts of factual distortions and misinformation.
To my knowledge, the S92 doesn't have a downwash problem (certainly not when compared to the Merlin) and by all accounts is a good SAR machine already (despite the range issues) and will be better in the Mk2 whenever that comes out. I believe that Sikorsky are looking at creative ways of increasing the fuel load carried internally without compromising on the workspace in the cabin.
The 139 on the other hand is always going to be hampered by its cabin size and, I gather, is not quite so popular on the front line as had been expected.
The aircraft on the interim contract were assessed for suitability by the MCA's aviation consultant who is a one man band with only one SAR tour in Hong Kong in the 70s on Whirlwinds. Unfortunately, he has also been involved with the SARH IPT and believes the rearcrew involved (experts in their field with honours degrees and MScs) shouldn't even have been allowed to take part in the SARH proceedings, even though they were the guys who actually checked the bidders claims aginst the aircraft specs and found all sorts of factual distortions and misinformation.
Does anyone have an official press release relating to the current status of SAR-H - I have looked on the DES (formerly DPA) website but there is no information at all. Seeing as a few posters have alluded to the current state of play I would be interested to know if there is an official release...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oman
Age: 60
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone know how the Portuguese are getting on with their SAR Merlins? Do they have a rear ramp for easier Cas off-load or is it traditional on SAR that casualties/unhurt survivors have to jump/be assisted from the side door on the ac? ISTR from a Wessex chap 'the Seaking won't be as good in the mountains, downwash, cab too big' now this is being said of Merlin, well, downwash anyway. If the SARF were to get Merlin then the crews could alternate on posting with SH, keeping crew conversion down? Still, politics and logic, an oxymoron if ever there was one.
Well TD - it's just like a real SAR helicopter.......only smaller
I think it is in the back of a SAR helicopter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Off the Planet
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It really was inevitable (from the Sunday Times - 030808):
The RAF is being forced to pull a fifth of its helicopter crews out of Britain’s search and rescue service and send them to Afghanistan in an attempt to stop soldiers being killed by roadside bombs.
The move will drastically reduce the number of RAF Sea King helicopters available to rescue people in trouble at sea or caught in disasters such as last year’s floods.
The RAF crews respond to an average of 1,000 emergency calls a year, varying from rescuing holidaymakers in difficulties to the 2004 floods that devastated the Cornish village of Boscastle.
Cutting one of the five crews from each of the six RAF search and rescue stations around Britain will put at risk the current ability to respond to any emergency within an hour.
The cuts, due to come into effect over the next few months, will leave most RAF search and rescue stations with only one helicopter on call instead of two, leaving no back-up for big incidents.
Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, whose North Devon constituency includes the RAF’s Chivenor search and rescue base, said: “There have to be grave concerns they will be left shorthanded.”
It is the first time search and rescue crews have been cut to help frontline forces.
Extra helicopters and crews in Afghanistan are seen as vital if the number of soldiers dying there is to be prevented from escalating. Twenty-seven of the last 33 soldiers killed in Afghanistan died as a result of roadside bombs or landmines.Commanders say unless they get them, more soldiers will die.
Just 16 transport helicopters serve British troops in Helmand, an area five times the size of Northern Ireland. Concern over rising numbers of victims of roadside bombs led to an emergency meeting on Thursday chaired by Des Browne, the defence secretary, to raise helicopter numbers.
Merlin helicopters bought from Denmark and revamped special-forces Chinooks, previously deemed too dangerous to fly, will relieve pressure in the short term. However, budget cuts could mean total helicopter numbers dropping from 525 to 220 within eight years.
The importance of rescue helicopters was highlighted this weekend when an RAF crew saved six children and two fathers. They had become stranded yesterday afternoon while travelling in an inflatable boat down the River Tees at Dalton-on-Tees, North Yorkshire. With the boat trapped on an island in the middle of the rising river, the helicopter was scrambled and winched all six to safety.
The MoD confirmed the cuts in crew numbers but said the RAF’s search and rescue would still have “at least one committed standby helicopter at six bases . . . This will not affect normal capability”.
The move will drastically reduce the number of RAF Sea King helicopters available to rescue people in trouble at sea or caught in disasters such as last year’s floods.
The RAF crews respond to an average of 1,000 emergency calls a year, varying from rescuing holidaymakers in difficulties to the 2004 floods that devastated the Cornish village of Boscastle.
Cutting one of the five crews from each of the six RAF search and rescue stations around Britain will put at risk the current ability to respond to any emergency within an hour.
The cuts, due to come into effect over the next few months, will leave most RAF search and rescue stations with only one helicopter on call instead of two, leaving no back-up for big incidents.
Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, whose North Devon constituency includes the RAF’s Chivenor search and rescue base, said: “There have to be grave concerns they will be left shorthanded.”
It is the first time search and rescue crews have been cut to help frontline forces.
Extra helicopters and crews in Afghanistan are seen as vital if the number of soldiers dying there is to be prevented from escalating. Twenty-seven of the last 33 soldiers killed in Afghanistan died as a result of roadside bombs or landmines.Commanders say unless they get them, more soldiers will die.
Just 16 transport helicopters serve British troops in Helmand, an area five times the size of Northern Ireland. Concern over rising numbers of victims of roadside bombs led to an emergency meeting on Thursday chaired by Des Browne, the defence secretary, to raise helicopter numbers.
Merlin helicopters bought from Denmark and revamped special-forces Chinooks, previously deemed too dangerous to fly, will relieve pressure in the short term. However, budget cuts could mean total helicopter numbers dropping from 525 to 220 within eight years.
The importance of rescue helicopters was highlighted this weekend when an RAF crew saved six children and two fathers. They had become stranded yesterday afternoon while travelling in an inflatable boat down the River Tees at Dalton-on-Tees, North Yorkshire. With the boat trapped on an island in the middle of the rising river, the helicopter was scrambled and winched all six to safety.
The MoD confirmed the cuts in crew numbers but said the RAF’s search and rescue would still have “at least one committed standby helicopter at six bases . . . This will not affect normal capability”.
continued on one engine?
Coastguard chopper forced to make emergency landing - Stornoway Today
Coastguard chopper forced to make emergency landing
THE NORTH WEST of Scotland was left without Coastguard emergency search and rescue helicopter service this week when one of the Stornoway based Coastguard choppers was forced to make an emergency landing.
At around midnight on Monday night, the S92 aircraft made an unscheduled landing in a field north of Glasgow whilst transporting a patient to hospital.
The landing came after indications from an alarm of a possible fire in one of its two engines.
The medical evacuation was later completed as the helicopter returned to its mission with the affected engine shut down.
Maritime and Coastguard Agency spokesperson Fiona Warren expanded: "The S92 from Stornoway was tasked to two medical evacuations last night.
"On scene, the aircrafts was forced to put down between Lochgilphead and Glasgow due to fire alarm activation. The medical evacuation was completed on one engine."
She added: "Unfortunately the spare aircraft cannot be used since it also has mechanical problems."
With the second aircraft out of commissions, the drama left much of the northwest Scottish coast and islands without Coastguard cover until 9pm on Tuesday.
Cover is provided – as a matter of routine in such situations – by RAF Lossiemouth and the HMS Gannet Royal Navy base at Prestwick.
After engineers completed work on the S92 on Tuesday afternoon, the aircraft then returned to Stornoway and was serviceable later that day.
Coastguard chopper forced to make emergency landing
THE NORTH WEST of Scotland was left without Coastguard emergency search and rescue helicopter service this week when one of the Stornoway based Coastguard choppers was forced to make an emergency landing.
At around midnight on Monday night, the S92 aircraft made an unscheduled landing in a field north of Glasgow whilst transporting a patient to hospital.
The landing came after indications from an alarm of a possible fire in one of its two engines.
The medical evacuation was later completed as the helicopter returned to its mission with the affected engine shut down.
Maritime and Coastguard Agency spokesperson Fiona Warren expanded: "The S92 from Stornoway was tasked to two medical evacuations last night.
"On scene, the aircrafts was forced to put down between Lochgilphead and Glasgow due to fire alarm activation. The medical evacuation was completed on one engine."
She added: "Unfortunately the spare aircraft cannot be used since it also has mechanical problems."
With the second aircraft out of commissions, the drama left much of the northwest Scottish coast and islands without Coastguard cover until 9pm on Tuesday.
Cover is provided – as a matter of routine in such situations – by RAF Lossiemouth and the HMS Gannet Royal Navy base at Prestwick.
After engineers completed work on the S92 on Tuesday afternoon, the aircraft then returned to Stornoway and was serviceable later that day.
