I did not personnely seen the tape, i`m not anymore in Abu Dhabi but i still
have somes very reliables contacts overthere, from what they told me, the
helicopter was clear on take off to 1500 fts for a West departure, wich is the
normal departure for helicopters heading offshore, they busted 1500 and went up to 2000 fts, they never really maintained a strait and level flight up to a point where they started a steep descent at low airspeed, someone mentionned 40 kts in a previous thread, they crashed near Futaisi Island wich is about 18 miles west of Abu Dhabi and is a waypoint on the West departure and on all helicopters GPS of the company. You`ve seen the photo, you can tell that there was almost no forward airspeed when they chashed, the rotorhead with the blades still attached to it, is sitting right next to what`s left of the fuselage.
maybe my question is inoportune, I don't know ADA at all: is it legaly possible for a Captain have a pax straped in the cockpit, leave the COP in the back, and still go on with the flight without concerning about SOP and insurance?
No it is not legal, in the UAE, only a medevac can be done VFR at night, all
other flight should be IFR and IFR require 2 IFR rated pilots in their respective
seat, now one thing that i`ve been told was that J.Hanley was the Captain of the flight but was initially in the copilot seat and Obaid, the National, was the copilot for that flight, i do not know if Obaid was a qualified captain or not, but he was on the Captain seat, Sheik Al Nayan got in the front while
J.Hanley was outside in the back loading the 2 other pax , he went back to the front to try to get back to his seat, but apparently the Sheik wanted to stay in the front, due to the hight rank of Sheik Al Nayan (he was the brother of President of the UAE), John went relutanctely in the back with the other VIP.
This tragedy begs the question....."How does one say "No!" to a customer?"
Sometimes it is very, very, difficult....and will probably end your employment.
I did ride in the cabin of a Sikorsky S-76 while two Iraqi pilots I had given Conversion training to drove us around for an hour. It was done as a sign of confidence to them regarding their demonstrated performance during training. Actually, it was probably one of the least wise things I have done in my life. Now if my ex-wife had been available.....hmmmmmmm!
I agree with SASless, it is sometime difficult to say no and that is even more true in the UAE, as ADA is more or less a government company, the
biggests shareholders are members in the highests ranks of the government and the Royal Family, to say no may be the end of your career in the country, however, there is time where it is better to say no and loose your job, instead of loosing your life, i`m sure this accident will serve as a lesson and new rules will take place at least in the UAE, to prevent this type of accident to happen again, but it remain to be seen where the blame will fall,
either J.Hanley will be blame for it or either, nothing will come out and they will try to hide everything.
Yes there was fault in John Hanley's decision, but When the presidents brother jumps in the front and probably demanded to fly what is John to do. If he were to pull rank and make an ass of the Shiek then his career would have been over in UAE. As his son I wish he would have put the Shiek in his place and found another job. At least he would be alive along with the rest of the crew! He will be dearly missed along with the other passengers. Condolences from the Hanley family to all who have lost their loved ones in this tragic event.
yep it is very unfortunate, but with such a high profile chap on board, every one know's out here in the vvip circuit, you say no once and you have your plane ticket back home in 24 hr's.
gossip on the grape vine, and I am willing to be corrected, because of the high profile accident the orders from above is that the accident will not be investigated. my condolences to the families.
fluffy
I’ve always felt the best way to honor those lost in an accident is to use the lessons to keep others from the same fate.
If I can be of assistance honoring John, please advise.
If the CFIT holds true as a root cause(still an assumption) it will still be contributed to the over 80% human factor related accidnets in Aviation.
I agree; it is very difficult to say no in such cases. It was probably difficult for Captain J.Hanley to ask the low time copilot to go sit in the back instead of him so he can assume control of the Aircraft in the cockpit as a required crewmember. Who knows what had exactly happend!!
Last edited by helipilot214 : 10th June 2008 at 16:18.
I know there are those who say we should not even discuss any accident until the full investigation is over, and man, I almost hate to weigh-in on this thing. But as a long-time pilot I can't resist offering my thoughts.
What helipilot214 says is true: Who knows what happened! I think we can be fairly sure of only one or two things: 1) John was not sitting way in the back, seat reclined, feet up, not a care in the world. I'd be willing to bet real money that he was right there, between the pilot seats, "coaching" them as third crewmember. I know I would have been.
Secondly, it was *not* CFIT, that much is obvious. The term implies that the aircraft was under control up to the point of impact. But the 139's contact with the water was surely not "controlled." If they hit at such an apparently low forward speed, then neither of the two "pilots" had control of anything, certainly not the airspeed and absolutely not the altitude.
It's a very sad accident if what is alleged is true. We can only wonder after the fact what any of us would have done in a similar situation. (For the record, I often fly over dark-dark areas at night with my unrated boss. He sometimes wants to "take the stick" and see what flying in such conditions is like. I always decline, sometimes forcefully, because I don't want the possibility of him putting us into an attitude from which recovery would be difficult even for me. He grumbles and complains, but it's just too damn bad and it tests my skills of diplomacy to the max, as many of you out there can undoubtedly sympathize.)
Is it fortunate or unfortunate I have very limited amounts of "tact and diplomacy"? (Like none really!)
I made it a rule that upon saying "No".....the more someone up the greasy pole of management tried to coerce me into flying....the more adamant and less tactful I became about stating I would not fly.
At one location I told the CP...."The keys are in it....you're wearing your bars....have at it big boy!" The CP told another pilot to take my co-pilot and aircraft and get flying. The shock on the CP's face when the Co-pilot said...."If my Captain doesn't go....I won't go!" was very amusing to all but the CP.
Being single, having no children, and being debt free made it a lot easier stick my neck out on those very few occasions when job security was at risk for saying "No".
Point out where I criticized anyone or made any suggestion as to the cause of the accident?
i have addressed my remarks to the pressure pilots experience to fly when they are confronted by employers or passengers refusing to take "No" for an answer.
Each of us at some point have been confronted with that situation and have made our own decisions as to how to handle the problem. Just as in other aspects of flying, we make our decisions and then have to bear the results.
I would suggest this thread discusses an extreme case of just such an event. The amount of pressure John was under must have been very intense. For there to have been such a tragic outcome makes it all the more heart breaking.
I am John's son. I will miss him dearly. I know all of you have different thoughts and opinions regarding this unfortunate situation, and that's what is good about freedom and liberty. You are able to speak your mind and have your own opinions. I have been watching this forum daily and have no ill will to anyone who has commented. I am not a pilot, I chose to make a living in the natural gas transportation business, so much of what is said here I have no clue.... (Acronym's) etc. I do know this.... Although it is most likely to happen in the future under different circumstances (loss of life) I want you all to know that if there is anything to be learned from this accident please apply it to your moral and proffesional decisions. You guys and gals serve a very important purpose in this world. Some of you may feel it is just a job to pay the bills, but you are all very skilled individuals. Please be safe and learn from others mistakes. I just hate that you have to learn from my fathers. I wish you all the best as my father would and hope not to here of anything like this in the future..... Happy flying.
After having worked here in the ME for 8 years I can tell you this... John would have been under extreme pressure to give up his seat. His thoughts in those few moments would have been dominated by fear of losing his job, security, family et al, and when you are faced with a situation like that you WILL relinquish... Hindsight is a wonderful thing and with that particular crystal ball to hand I wish (IF THE BACK SEAT THEORY IS PROVED CORRECT) he would have shaiked the hand, bowed gracefully and kept walking all the way back to the security of his smokers seat near the hangar and gracefully watched the superior departure...
Where does one get training on how to handle a situation like this diplomatically? That is, keep the job, but don't compromise on safety?
Are there any good examples of how to do this?
Should we start another thread on this subject?
I'm feel not very sad about John, he was part from the Management and did the same to another employs, when somebody refused to do a flight, so are give John only one way, you do the job or you are fired. This is the culture in ME.
No reason to argue guys
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