Facts in the ME pertaining to incidents of this nature in which a ‘loss of face’ may be seen to occur tend to have a habit of either being buried away or conveniently 'blamed' upon a scapegoat or even put down to the 'Insh'Allah' factor.
I would say it is in Agusta's interest to release the pertaining facts as soon as practical.
That said, I do agree that none of us should be jumping to any armchair conclusions, but should let the investigation process continue without making unfounded comments or opinions.
For the record, I in no way meant to imply there was any defect, latent or otherwise in the AW139. I was merely trying to present an arguement that could be used to gain access to the CVR/FDR data and suggest that instead of whining on an anonomous web site we lend our voices to support these efforts. But since you are happy with the status quo, I'll go back to my knitting.
Last edited by jolly girl : 8th June 2008 at 16:03.
Its really not a case of "Not being concerned" its more a case of those who have real experience of how things are done here know there is no point in trying to force an issue...... you will just NOT get anywhere.
I would suggest to all ... leave it alone ... wait and see .... eventually ALL WILL BE REVEALED .... I hope!
No aircraft have been grounded ... does that not tell you something?
Hear Hear!! About time someone took the lead. It is unfortunate that the numbers of whiners and BMG's are on the increase. Dear Lady, please do not go back to your knitting! We, the positive need you.
Every time there is an accident or incident of any magnitude, the horizon clouds over with the equivalent of road accident rubber-neckers anxious to spread their venom with speculation, questionable knowledge and ofttimes accusations and falsehoods.
It had been requested before -
1. There are families suffering as a result of this accident.
2. Let us ALL as professionals show some respect. Their loss is also our personal and professional loss.
3. No amount of speculation is going to change the facts. When the results are known, let us all take a step back and understand and realise we are not perfect, - and it can happen to us.
4. If it is that negative tendencies cannot be restrained, then at least exhibit some modicum of common decency and remain silent.
5. A very wise Bush Engineer in Labrador offered the answer: I may live with animals, it doesn't necessarily follow that I should be one.
Firstly, no matter the real reason behind this tragedy let us please all wish our heartfelt condolences to the families of those who have died.
Secondly, you are quite right that too many people here have been just like the rubberneckers at a motorway accident. Even an all EFIS cockpit has standby electromechanical horizons, ASIs VSIs and altimeters. Any experienced IFR pilot is capable of operating on these even in the event of a total electrical failure.
The actual cause may never be known given the people involved, though there will always be conjecture in a case like this. No matter the real cause, no matter those who are probably speculating based on the real evidence, this is a real tragedy for the families of those involved.
First of all, I would like to extend my deep condolences for those family who lost their closest family, The CVFDR (Combi) which have been recovered & secured by UAE SAR, has been downloaded by team (Augusta, UAE SAR, GCAA) and handed over to UAE GCAA in data gathering / analysis phase, as it is very complex accident /manoeuver it will take some time to determine probable cause.
I am not a very experienced poster but it seems to me that when these awful things happen half of you seem incapable of seperating the emotion from the issue/facts.
I really do not know anything about what happened to this flight but I would like to guess that nobody set out to die that day......an accident happened!!!!!
I feel that this rumour forum is the correct place for those of you with inside knowledge to try and help the rest of us make some sense of the reasons why or how this accident may have happened.
Worrying whether the investigation will be transparent or that the truth will be delivered is in my view not the real issue. There are plenty of terrible accidents that haved happened where despite massive effort and resources the final outcome is inconclusive.
For the postings above it is possible to form the impression that a fully trained competent pilot not only gave up his crew station to another person but he may well have felt pressure to do so. Well I would hope I will never be in a position to allow that to happen to me or my passengers. Anyone else out "there" under the same kind of pressure...get out quick!!!
Market forces dictate everything in business. I find it really difficult to digest that such cultures can be allowed to exist in avaition. There are really plenty of well paid jobs flying serious helicopters for serious companies without any of us having to face this kind of test of our moral fibre.
If this is the issue, then it can only be addressed by those involved. Voting with ones feet is sometimes the only way to make the point!!!
I would ask that we get some real discussion on this accident and the tit for tat bitching between those of you who are in the know, and those of you who want to be... take it outside.. or get a room!!!
Regarding the ME factor that's frequently being referred to in here, if I remember way back (2002??) when that Gulf Air (A310??) ploughed into the sea off Bahrain (??) just after dark, with 2 nationals at the controls (?) there were commentators left right and center going around here saying of the ME factor, the truth will never be known because of those involved, likely to be a cover-up etc etc. But if I recall, the truth did come out, eventually, and I reckon the truth will come out here, eventually. So let's wait and see.
My name is John T Hanley. I just received word of my fathers death last night. I cannot express in words what I and my siblings are dealing with. John P. Hanley was one of the best men you could have ever met! John adopted myself and my 3 siblings when he married my mother in the states years ago. I contribute all my success in life to the man and love him dearly in life and death. I spent many days as his co-pilot when he was flying a beechcratf e90 twin engine for a small oil firm. He was one of the best in the field and it hurts so bad to know he lost his life and wasn't even at the controls. To hell with the Shiek! We have all lost a good friend, father, mentor who has worked his ass off his entire life to get to the position he was in. I will be calling his Thai wife tomorrow with a translator to let her know that if there is anything we can do we are here for her.
If anyone has any more details or information on his death please, PLEASE contact me at any time at the information below. You guys be safe in the air and I hope his replacement serves you all well at ADA
John,
You and I have never met, nor did I have the opportunity to meet with your Father, but we are thrice joined by coincidence.
Since that terrible day last week, I have had conversations with two pilots who worked with, or were trained by him, and both remarked their astonishment and deep regret.
Please accept, and pass on to your Family, as well as to the Family in Thailand our deepest condolences.
Please be assured that this unfortunate happening will remain as a point of reference to which most will refer in times of doubt or pressure. Those who deny this reference are destined to history; Lady Luck is a fickle creature.
Please do not hestiate to email should there be the need.
CMW.
How very courageous of you to come forward in what must be truly heartbreaking circumstances for you and your family. I didn't know John Snr at all but please accept my condolences on his tragic and untimely death.
John,
As the originator of this thread may I say how sad I am for the grief you and your family are going through. All the professional aviators that grace these pages I am sure are of the one mind, that they too could so readily fall afoul of what ever it may have been that brought an end to a good man, your father. I never knew your father, but it is obvious that those you did held him in high regard. It is a sorry comment that the country's authorities may see no need to investigate the circumstances of the accident and seemingly prefer to consign the memory of your father John, and the others who lost their lives, to the dustbin, while declaring a three day period of mourning for their Shiek. John, a wordsmith I am not, but I hope the under lying sentiment comes through. Words some how seem so inadequare on occasions such as this, but I hope you, your family and your friends can navigate the shoals put before you and once again find peace.
It is my hope that the truth will with out. To hell with the Shiek? - you bet.
Bless you and Yours, we too cry in your loss,
Brian
I knew John during my brief time with ADA some years ago. To you, John junior and all his family I offer my condolences. The pain will eventually soften and he will still live on in your wonderful memories of him. RIP
It saddens me to know that such accidents continue to occur especially with the induction of an inexperienced crew member into the cockpit at night Whatever, I hope that all facts will be revealed...otherwise speculation will be rife. After so long a promising safe helicopter comes along ...let it be!
Just got an email this morning from a friend at ADA, the FDR and the VDR have been analysed, the 139 was in perfect shape, this accident was CFIT
(controlled flight into terrain). To put back a few things in perspective, the weather in the UAE is rarely IFR, visibility in the summer is reduce due to haze, but is rarely IFR, pilots overthere, never really have a chance to pratice
real IFR flying, like we do in North America, the North Sea or West Africa. The sun or the stars are shining about 360 days a year ovethere, and the sad thing is that the peoples in the third floors in Abu Dhabi Aviation do not believe in simulator training, so none of the guys overthere, had simulator training on the 139 or the 412 except a very few guys in the training dept.
What we had there, a complex machine with a low time pilot on the 139at the control and a useless VIP on the other seat, J.Hanley was in the back
and of course, useless as well, could simulator training had prevent the accident? I let you come up with your owns conclusions.
Whatever, I hope that all facts will be revealed...otherwise speculation will be rife. After so long a promising safe helicopter comes along ...let it be!
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