L@ser & searchlight attacks on aircraft (incl prison sentences on offenders)
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I don't believe that any of us are concerned about the possible damage to our eyesight from these lasers
Well I am concerned about possible damage to my eyesight, even if only temporarily
CAA GASIL Issue 6, 2009 :
The CAA has recently published FODCOM 05/2009, which although targeted primarily at public transport operators is equally valid for GA pilots, and includes similar advice. It also recommends seeking a medical evaluation after any such illumination (by laser).
CAP789 :
Crews who have been subject to bright light or laser illumination can expect minor and transient visual impairment, e.g. a retinal after-image remaining visible for a short time, or short-lived flash-type blindness of the sort to be expected after a normal 'flash' photograph has been taken. It is recommended that, following an illumination incident believed to be from a laser, affected crew members should seek medical evaluation, preferably by a qualified vision specialist, before returning to flying duties (see ICAO Document 9815, Manual on Laser Emitters and Flight Safety, Chapter 4).
The incident should be reported to the CAA under the MORS. The MOR should give as much detail of the occurrence as possible and should include brief details of any immediate post-flight medical assistance needed or given to crew members.
The incident should be reported to the CAA under the MORS. The MOR should give as much detail of the occurrence as possible and should include brief details of any immediate post-flight medical assistance needed or given to crew members.
Human instinctive reaction will usually help to protect against a sudden bright dazzling light, but it is almost inevitable that one day a pilot will get the first hit directly in their eyes by a device powerful enough to cause permanent damage.
Plenty of scary videos on the 'Net - there's one advertised as being 8000 times brighter than looking directly at the Sun
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And then there is this
greatland laser
Has anyone experience of this product (either end of the beam!)?
greatland laser
Has anyone experience of this product (either end of the beam!)?
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No doubt someone will chip in and say the sentence of 4 years in jail seems harsh,
but I bet the defendant, anyone that knows him, and anyone that becomes aware of this incident,
will think long and hard before doing something similar in the future
Sentences handed down the Courts are there not only to punish the offender,
but also to act as a deterrent to others - something which often seems to be lacking in the UK these days ( IMHO ).
but I bet the defendant, anyone that knows him, and anyone that becomes aware of this incident,
will think long and hard before doing something similar in the future
Sentences handed down the Courts are there not only to punish the offender,
but also to act as a deterrent to others - something which often seems to be lacking in the UK these days ( IMHO ).
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I live in Mexico City, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, and I can tell you that I get one of those new "HIGH POWER" GREEN LASERS POINTED AT ME AT LEAST TWICE A WEEK WHILE FLYING! Those things have become very popular toys. I don't see them as a huge danger, distracting at most.
Call me dumb if you want but actually I think it looks pretty, and have never felt it hurt my eyes in anyway, the beams of those lasers I'm sure would be hurtful at close range concentrated where the dot is still small, and for a considerable period of time, but at whatever range the helicopter is flying, those lasers are cheap and the light disperses and what used to be a small dot at few yards is now a 1+ meter light spot, with the corresponding loss of concentration.
Have you ever pointed one of those lasers at a faraway building? I have one of those, I live on a 10th story apartment and I sometimes point it a building that is exactly 520 meters away, and the dot at that distance looks at least a meter wide, so if the the dot was about 1.5 mm at close range, at that distance calculate the corresponding dilution, it would be huge.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be forbideen, but I think it's extreme to have a teenager jailed for 4 years for doing that, if it were up to me, maybe 6 months max, the judge saying it could have been a tragedy is frankly ridiculous, I would have felt so guilty as a pilot to have a teenager jailed for something that I knew could have never caused a tragedy, if the pilot really thought he was going to be blinded, why did he keep circling around the boy switching back and forth the camera mode? if he really thought that thing was going to bring him down it would have been negligent for him to keep on circling woudn't it?
Call me dumb if you want but actually I think it looks pretty, and have never felt it hurt my eyes in anyway, the beams of those lasers I'm sure would be hurtful at close range concentrated where the dot is still small, and for a considerable period of time, but at whatever range the helicopter is flying, those lasers are cheap and the light disperses and what used to be a small dot at few yards is now a 1+ meter light spot, with the corresponding loss of concentration.
Have you ever pointed one of those lasers at a faraway building? I have one of those, I live on a 10th story apartment and I sometimes point it a building that is exactly 520 meters away, and the dot at that distance looks at least a meter wide, so if the the dot was about 1.5 mm at close range, at that distance calculate the corresponding dilution, it would be huge.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be forbideen, but I think it's extreme to have a teenager jailed for 4 years for doing that, if it were up to me, maybe 6 months max, the judge saying it could have been a tragedy is frankly ridiculous, I would have felt so guilty as a pilot to have a teenager jailed for something that I knew could have never caused a tragedy, if the pilot really thought he was going to be blinded, why did he keep circling around the boy switching back and forth the camera mode? if he really thought that thing was going to bring him down it would have been negligent for him to keep on circling woudn't it?
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BP
I doubt if the pilot was controlling the camera or looking into the beam.
B.
if the pilot really thought he was going to be blinded, why did he keep circling around the boy switching back and forth the camera mode? if he really thought that thing was going to bring him down it would have been negligent for him to keep on circling woudn't it?
B.
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It's getting worse:
Canada News: Laser attacks on pilots are on the rise, records show - thestar.com
Canada News: Laser attacks on pilots are on the rise, records show - thestar.com
Gold Coast Laser Attack on Police Helicopter
From ABC News
Police have charged a 37-year-old man after a laser beam was aimed at a commercial airliner and a police helicopter last night.
The suspect was found in the backyard of a house in the northern Gold Coast suburb of Ormeau.
Police allege he aimed a hand-held laser at the two aircraft just before 9pm (AEST).
The man has been charged with threatening the safety of people on board an aircraft.
He is due to appear at Southport Magistrates Court next month.
Police have charged a 37-year-old man after a laser beam was aimed at a commercial airliner and a police helicopter last night.
The suspect was found in the backyard of a house in the northern Gold Coast suburb of Ormeau.
Police allege he aimed a hand-held laser at the two aircraft just before 9pm (AEST).
The man has been charged with threatening the safety of people on board an aircraft.
He is due to appear at Southport Magistrates Court next month.
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"And then there is this
greatland l@ser
Has anyone experience of this product (either end of the beam!)? "
The Greatland was designed by a pilot for pilots (downed) to signal to pilots(flying) in Alaska.
It is 5mW - enough to be seen as a bright dot in the distance but nowhere near enough to illuminate cockpit or disrupt flying.
Your problem lasers are 200mW or greater (also usually green since they appear brighter to the human eye). Technically not for sale in the UK but available by post.
Interestingly the US Coast Guard helo rules are, if a laser is shone at the pilot, abandon rescue immediately, go back to base, go to hospital for eye check.
(How do I know this ? I have been working on, inventing and selling, emergency laser signalling devices for years. I tested a Greatland with a UK SAR helicopter - by mutual consent. No problems.)
greatland l@ser
Has anyone experience of this product (either end of the beam!)? "
The Greatland was designed by a pilot for pilots (downed) to signal to pilots(flying) in Alaska.
It is 5mW - enough to be seen as a bright dot in the distance but nowhere near enough to illuminate cockpit or disrupt flying.
Your problem lasers are 200mW or greater (also usually green since they appear brighter to the human eye). Technically not for sale in the UK but available by post.
Interestingly the US Coast Guard helo rules are, if a laser is shone at the pilot, abandon rescue immediately, go back to base, go to hospital for eye check.
(How do I know this ? I have been working on, inventing and selling, emergency laser signalling devices for years. I tested a Greatland with a UK SAR helicopter - by mutual consent. No problems.)
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Sounds good Send'em but what are the 'instructions' that go with the signalling laser?
Surely if you are looking for someone, the green laser beams' source can be seen without pointing it at the ac itself. Maybe for an initial contact, but how do the rescue crew acknowledge the sighting?
Rather than blinding, by ruining the crews night vision literally in a flash, aren't rescue strobe lights a better location aid?
Having been lasered quite a few times, the last thing I'd need while approaching a landing site is a light blooming the screen from someone 'trying to help' illuminate the location for example.
The 'problem lasers' give the same effect as your rescue laser. Distrating, ruining night vision and blooming the screens! This may well not cause any retina damage, but that isn't the only 'problem'.
Laser Pointer Safety - FAQ
Send'em, 2 things.. are you a pilot that has actually experienced being 'lasered'? and have you actually seen your own link?
Surely if you are looking for someone, the green laser beams' source can be seen without pointing it at the ac itself. Maybe for an initial contact, but how do the rescue crew acknowledge the sighting?
Rather than blinding, by ruining the crews night vision literally in a flash, aren't rescue strobe lights a better location aid?
Having been lasered quite a few times, the last thing I'd need while approaching a landing site is a light blooming the screen from someone 'trying to help' illuminate the location for example.
It is 5mW - enough to be seen as a bright dot in the distance but nowhere near enough to illuminate cockpit or disrupt flying.
Your problem lasers are 200mW or greater (also usually green since they appear brighter to the human eye). Technically not for sale in the UK but available by post.
Your problem lasers are 200mW or greater (also usually green since they appear brighter to the human eye). Technically not for sale in the UK but available by post.
Laser Pointer Safety - FAQ
When does a laser pointer get powerful enough to be dangerous?
There is no specific threshold between a "safe" laser beam, a potentially hazardous one, and a clearly dangerous beam. The following are some guidelines.
Bright Light Hazard
Even a "legal" (in the U.S.) 5 milliwatt laser pointer can be a potential hazard if the light distracts or temporarily flashblinds a person such as a pilot. This is why you NEVER aim a laser pointer at an aircraft, or the driver of a vehicle.
There is no specific threshold between a "safe" laser beam, a potentially hazardous one, and a clearly dangerous beam. The following are some guidelines.
Bright Light Hazard
Even a "legal" (in the U.S.) 5 milliwatt laser pointer can be a potential hazard if the light distracts or temporarily flashblinds a person such as a pilot. This is why you NEVER aim a laser pointer at an aircraft, or the driver of a vehicle.
Send'em, 2 things.. are you a pilot that has actually experienced being 'lasered'? and have you actually seen your own link?
It is 5mW - enough to be seen as a bright dot in the distance but nowhere near enough to illuminate cockpit or disrupt flying.
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Somewhere back in the distant past of this thread it was mentioned that the UK CAA have added a new offence to the ANO which made it an offence to shine a light or laser or at an aircraft.
It might be sensible for any instructions to mention this to save embarrassment.
Given the trouble that exists with flares (risk of using and difficulties with getting rid of expired ones), the laser could be useful.
It might be sensible for any instructions to mention this to save embarrassment.
Given the trouble that exists with flares (risk of using and difficulties with getting rid of expired ones), the laser could be useful.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Mmm, guess I'll have to wait a few years before they get answered, in the meantime, I'll assume a negative for both!
http://www.pprune.org/search.php?searchid=896394
http://www.pprune.org/search.php?searchid=896394
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Siloe Sid,
Apologies for the delay. I know pilots get a "knee jerk reaction" when anyone mentions lasers, so let's me explain a few things.
If you can see the beam (like Jedi Light Sabre) then the laser is up in the 200mW range or above. These lasers will cause you problems and are the ones usually green (because it looks brighter to the human eye) and held by a scrote. They are focused to tight spot.
The Greatland Laser Flare (Greatland Laser and note the instructions for use) is significantly different. It is NOT focused to point. If you shine it on a wall it projects a thin line and is about 5mW. This was designed by Jim O'Meara, an Alaskan freight pilot for signalling to aircraft from the ground.
It is legal in the US to shine this laser at an aircraft - because it was designed specifically for that purpose. It is not powerful enough to cause eye damage (because it is not tightly focused to a spot) beyond a few feet.
All the pilot perceives when it is shone at a cockpit is a distant bright red light source - there is no interference with vision, night vision, or the ability to fly. The beam is too weak to be visible as line through the sky (unlike the powerful lasers you are referring to).
There is further variant, the Odeo Flare, which uses 5 lasers, line focused, in a rotating head. Odeo Flare :: #1 in Laser Flares
At a distance it is a bright flickering light source. It does not make NVG flare, it does not have visible beams coming out of the head. As with the Greatland, it is only visible if you are looking at it.
I'm trying to keep this short but will happily add more detail.
Apologies for the delay. I know pilots get a "knee jerk reaction" when anyone mentions lasers, so let's me explain a few things.
If you can see the beam (like Jedi Light Sabre) then the laser is up in the 200mW range or above. These lasers will cause you problems and are the ones usually green (because it looks brighter to the human eye) and held by a scrote. They are focused to tight spot.
The Greatland Laser Flare (Greatland Laser and note the instructions for use) is significantly different. It is NOT focused to point. If you shine it on a wall it projects a thin line and is about 5mW. This was designed by Jim O'Meara, an Alaskan freight pilot for signalling to aircraft from the ground.
It is legal in the US to shine this laser at an aircraft - because it was designed specifically for that purpose. It is not powerful enough to cause eye damage (because it is not tightly focused to a spot) beyond a few feet.
All the pilot perceives when it is shone at a cockpit is a distant bright red light source - there is no interference with vision, night vision, or the ability to fly. The beam is too weak to be visible as line through the sky (unlike the powerful lasers you are referring to).
There is further variant, the Odeo Flare, which uses 5 lasers, line focused, in a rotating head. Odeo Flare :: #1 in Laser Flares
At a distance it is a bright flickering light source. It does not make NVG flare, it does not have visible beams coming out of the head. As with the Greatland, it is only visible if you are looking at it.
I'm trying to keep this short but will happily add more detail.
Last edited by Send'em; 3rd Jan 2013 at 11:01.
Avoid imitations
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Somewhere back in the distant past of this thread it was mentioned that the UK CAA have added a new offence to the ANO which made it an offence to shine a light or laser or at an aircraft.
New powers to tackle aircraft laser crime introduced | CAA Newsroom | About the CAA
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It is not powerful enough to cause eye damage
I have seen the outcome of "laser-attacks"-and i know at least one pilot who almost lost his vision on one eye because one of the "small and harmless" lasers caught him during night low lever flying (in the military) through the NVG..
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Send'em, I take it from your insult of adjusting my username and not answering my questions that you are neither a pilot nor have you actually watched the video in your own link.
If you knew anything about this, you will realise that it is not necessarily the potential for retinal damage that is the problem, it is the distraction and loss of night vision that are the greater problems. If you would give us the decency to look at your own links' video, you will notice that the device you cream over doesn't show just a spot, but the classic disprutive blinding effect.
You would also read in your link;
...yet you tell us it's not green 
You also tell us it focuses to a tight spot, however the video demonstrates a 6,000 fan of light @ 16 miles !
Your link contradicts everything you post, and your posts contradict all that those of us affected by lasers know from experience.
I especially like your comment in reference to be Odeo flare (which is not dissimilar to the rotating toys available at Disneyland), that it is only visible if you are looking at it ! Is that the same as closing your eyes so that you will become invisible to the Daleks
If you knew anything about this, you will realise that it is not necessarily the potential for retinal damage that is the problem, it is the distraction and loss of night vision that are the greater problems. If you would give us the decency to look at your own links' video, you will notice that the device you cream over doesn't show just a spot, but the classic disprutive blinding effect.
You would also read in your link;
The GLF031-01 Green Rescue Laser Flare® is a hand-held day and nighttime laser signaling device that provides a convenient, effective way to signal a rescue party. It's waterproof, rugged design combines the safety of a laser signaling device with the convenience of a flashlight. Brilliant green light makes it the most visible of the three models and the preferred style of Search and Rescue (SAR) professionals.
You also tell us it focuses to a tight spot, however the video demonstrates a 6,000 fan of light @ 16 miles !
Your link contradicts everything you post, and your posts contradict all that those of us affected by lasers know from experience.
I especially like your comment in reference to be Odeo flare (which is not dissimilar to the rotating toys available at Disneyland), that it is only visible if you are looking at it ! Is that the same as closing your eyes so that you will become invisible to the Daleks
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SilsoeSid,
My apologies for the name error - no insult intended, just a silly mistake.
The link I gave was for the Red Greatland, which is line focused - as I thought I said.
The point I am trying to make is that high power lasers, focused to a dot, are very dangerous to pilots. (As we all know). These are usually referred to as "pointers" and will concentrate their power in a small circle at long range. They are often so powerful that the beam is visible as a line from pointer to target.
Low power lasers, focused to give a line across the "target" are not dangerous and have been deliberately designed to be safe. Since the 5mW is now spread across a long line (perpendicular to the laser to observer axis) the amount of power falling on the observer is minimal.
I am not a pilot, I have not been lased in the cockpit but I do lase pilots (with their permission) in product trials to confirm that those lasers designed as ground to air signalling devices are safe.
But I do stress that I am talking about lasers developed closely with pilots for safely signalling to aircrew in the air.
This is why some of the laser products I designed are now being evaluated in a number of countries and we have been tasked to produce a variant for a country's armed forces (including aircrew).
And referring to another comment - light at 635nm wavelength does not make most makes of NVG "bloom" but light at 555nm (green) can cause NVG to "flare". Varies from model to model.
My apologies for the name error - no insult intended, just a silly mistake.
The link I gave was for the Red Greatland, which is line focused - as I thought I said.
The point I am trying to make is that high power lasers, focused to a dot, are very dangerous to pilots. (As we all know). These are usually referred to as "pointers" and will concentrate their power in a small circle at long range. They are often so powerful that the beam is visible as a line from pointer to target.
Low power lasers, focused to give a line across the "target" are not dangerous and have been deliberately designed to be safe. Since the 5mW is now spread across a long line (perpendicular to the laser to observer axis) the amount of power falling on the observer is minimal.
I am not a pilot, I have not been lased in the cockpit but I do lase pilots (with their permission) in product trials to confirm that those lasers designed as ground to air signalling devices are safe.
But I do stress that I am talking about lasers developed closely with pilots for safely signalling to aircrew in the air.
This is why some of the laser products I designed are now being evaluated in a number of countries and we have been tasked to produce a variant for a country's armed forces (including aircrew).
And referring to another comment - light at 635nm wavelength does not make most makes of NVG "bloom" but light at 555nm (green) can cause NVG to "flare". Varies from model to model.
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Originally Posted by hueyracer
So you would allow me to shine it straight into your googles, when you are coming in flying a SAR-helo for pickup?
YES !
But I am not a pilot. So we could do a simple test but I now realise you are in East Africa.
Nominate a substitute in the UK.
I will wear your NVG and your substitute can shine my lasers while we stand in a field on a dark night. (So no one can crash).
Then we swap.
I receive the first laser "impact" because you think it will be dangerous.
But we will use the lasers I designed to be safe.
Then we might get you to accept that a laser that is designed to be safe and has been developed with pilots and that pilots say is is safe; is actually safe for pilots.