Guimbal Cabri G2
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Ahem,
Moving right back to topic;
It's good to see the project continuing to make progress. It was very positive to see the reference in the article to high rotor inertia, so clearly the lessons have been learned well.
The crashworthy seating looks to be very well done, giving a great sense of confidence.
Personally I'd like to see a diesel in the works, but given the level of innovation and thought that appears to have gone into it so far, I don't imagine the concept will have escaped the designer. I suppose, a suitable engine needs to be found first. I gather the thielert may have packaging problems in this layout and the SMA may be too heavy.
As described, it might be a bit expensive - I wonder whether it will be built by Guimbal itself or assembly subcontracted? Now let's see, who's got a production/assembly facility in Europe, the US and Asia?
I do hope Guimbal will ensure his product support is an improvement on his former employer........
Here's a tip, gather bits for 1 complete airframe, put on shelf, assemble next set of bits for the next airframe, complete and deliver to customer. Repeat, at least to get started with. Should only need a few complete sets of spares to get the kinks ironed out.
It's good to see the project continuing to make progress. It was very positive to see the reference in the article to high rotor inertia, so clearly the lessons have been learned well.
The crashworthy seating looks to be very well done, giving a great sense of confidence.
Personally I'd like to see a diesel in the works, but given the level of innovation and thought that appears to have gone into it so far, I don't imagine the concept will have escaped the designer. I suppose, a suitable engine needs to be found first. I gather the thielert may have packaging problems in this layout and the SMA may be too heavy.
As described, it might be a bit expensive - I wonder whether it will be built by Guimbal itself or assembly subcontracted? Now let's see, who's got a production/assembly facility in Europe, the US and Asia?
I do hope Guimbal will ensure his product support is an improvement on his former employer........
Here's a tip, gather bits for 1 complete airframe, put on shelf, assemble next set of bits for the next airframe, complete and deliver to customer. Repeat, at least to get started with. Should only need a few complete sets of spares to get the kinks ironed out.
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Here is an answer of couple of your questions, directly from Guimbal's mind, I hope he won't get pissed off with me trying to restitude and translate his email on a french forum (he is a little bit rude in this email, it's nothing to see with you, just that this kind of designers might be the target for millions of critiques, I guess at least, and he answer to an other buddy...):
original from Mr Guimbal:
"Comment répondre à tant de haine ??
Je vais commencer par la seule attaque qui me touche : le moteur Lycoming. Celui qui aura passé la moitié du temps que j'ai passé à étudier sérieusement les autres moteurs possibles pour un hélicoptère biplace, pourrait me jeter la première pierre. Il ne le ferait probablement pas d'ailleurs, par compassion.
Je tiens à la disposition de qui veut des milliers de pages, plans, courbes, sur les Porsche PFM, Mazda birotor, Diesels turbo divers, Rotax, Wilksh, Deltahawk, Subaru, Thielert, SMA (j'ai d'ailleurs travaillé pour le moteur SMA).
Cela me désolerait d'ailleurs d'y avoir passé tout ce temps, si je ne savais pas que tant de gens sérieux en ont passé beaucoup plus (Cirrus, Robinson, Mooney, Socata, etc...excusez du peu) avec le meme résultat pitoyable. Pitoyable pour les discussions de ceux qui restent au bar, d'ailleurs, car ceux qui volent en Cirrus ou en R44 ne perdent pas leur temps à "maudire les ténèbres"... (du proverbe chinois "mieux vaut allumer une bougie que maudire les ténèbres")
A propos de bougies... le Cabri est certifié avec un allumage électronique cartographique du dernier cri, et d'autres modernités, sur son vieux Lycoming."
Translated as better as I can (actually very quick), in english:
how facing so much hatred??
I'll answer to the only attack that touch me: the lycoming engine. the one who had spent half of the time that I did studying seriously others possible engines for a two seat helo, could cast me the first stone and eventually he won't probably do it by compassion.
I get at disposition to who want, thousand of sheets, plans, curves, for the porshes PFM, Mazda bi-rotor, diverts diesels turbo, Rotax, wilksh, Deltahawk, Subaru, Thierlet, SMA (by the way I worked for SMA engine).
I would feel sorry by the way to have spent so much time, if I didn't known that so many serious peoples had spent much more (Cirrus, Robinson, Mooney, Socata, etc... excuse me please) with the same pitifull result. Pitifull for the discussions of one whom spend time into the bars instead of flying the Cirrus or R44 and complaining after that...
talking about spark plugs... cabri is certified with an electronic ingnition system of the last generation on the old lycoming.
Original:
"Je finirai par le sujet qui me fait sourire, mais j'ai peur qu'il n'intéresse personne : "le fric du contribuable".
J'ai quitté définitivement un emploi salarié stable et bien rémunéré, et arreté de cotiser à la retraite, dans une CPE - Certitude de Précarité Eternelle. Pour réunir les 3 Meuros de fonds propres que nous dépensons en ce moment, j'ai engagé dans la bonne humeur et l'aventure ce que je possèdais, la confiance et l'argent de mes 5 frères et soeurs, de 8 amis ingénieurs passionnés, et j'ai convaincu trois sociétés industrielles privées, dont Eurocopter.
Je suis incapable d'aller faire cela à l'étranger, mais cent fois, il m'a été affirmé que c'était la seule solution possible.
Heureusement, nous avons obtenu des aides à l'emploi et au développement, la plupart remboursables sur les ventes, et plusieurs garanties sur mes biens (qui n'y suffiraient pas au quart !). Il y a (qui a dit "il reste" ?) en France des fonctionnaires motivés pour l'aviation et l'industrie, sinon on serait tous bons pour importer du matériel chinois. Ou belge."
Translated:
I'll finish with the subject that make me laughing, but I'm afraid that nobody'll be interess in: "the taxpayer's money".
I definitively quit a salaried and stable position well pay and ceased to pay for the the retreat , social security. To put together the 3 Millions Euro that we're spending now, I engaged in happiness into this adventure all i had, confidence and money of my familly, plus 8 passionates ingeeners, and convince 3 industrials societies include eurocopter.
I'm not capable to do it in a foreign country, but 100 times, I heart that it was the only possibility.
Hopefully, we had aid to develop, reimbursable on the sells and manies garanties on my owns. there are still some state employers in France, motivated for aviation and industry, if not we would just have to import chinese material, or belgium.
by the way, I think or I heard that guimbal helicopter is very open mind to fit the cabri with an other engine regardless of performances/weight ratio and of course realiability, include diesel engines, waiting after the industry to design it i guess...
sorry Mister guimbal if this email bother you, just let me know I'll erase it immediately!
original from Mr Guimbal:
"Comment répondre à tant de haine ??
Je vais commencer par la seule attaque qui me touche : le moteur Lycoming. Celui qui aura passé la moitié du temps que j'ai passé à étudier sérieusement les autres moteurs possibles pour un hélicoptère biplace, pourrait me jeter la première pierre. Il ne le ferait probablement pas d'ailleurs, par compassion.
Je tiens à la disposition de qui veut des milliers de pages, plans, courbes, sur les Porsche PFM, Mazda birotor, Diesels turbo divers, Rotax, Wilksh, Deltahawk, Subaru, Thielert, SMA (j'ai d'ailleurs travaillé pour le moteur SMA).
Cela me désolerait d'ailleurs d'y avoir passé tout ce temps, si je ne savais pas que tant de gens sérieux en ont passé beaucoup plus (Cirrus, Robinson, Mooney, Socata, etc...excusez du peu) avec le meme résultat pitoyable. Pitoyable pour les discussions de ceux qui restent au bar, d'ailleurs, car ceux qui volent en Cirrus ou en R44 ne perdent pas leur temps à "maudire les ténèbres"... (du proverbe chinois "mieux vaut allumer une bougie que maudire les ténèbres")
A propos de bougies... le Cabri est certifié avec un allumage électronique cartographique du dernier cri, et d'autres modernités, sur son vieux Lycoming."
Translated as better as I can (actually very quick), in english:
how facing so much hatred??
I'll answer to the only attack that touch me: the lycoming engine. the one who had spent half of the time that I did studying seriously others possible engines for a two seat helo, could cast me the first stone and eventually he won't probably do it by compassion.
I get at disposition to who want, thousand of sheets, plans, curves, for the porshes PFM, Mazda bi-rotor, diverts diesels turbo, Rotax, wilksh, Deltahawk, Subaru, Thierlet, SMA (by the way I worked for SMA engine).
I would feel sorry by the way to have spent so much time, if I didn't known that so many serious peoples had spent much more (Cirrus, Robinson, Mooney, Socata, etc... excuse me please) with the same pitifull result. Pitifull for the discussions of one whom spend time into the bars instead of flying the Cirrus or R44 and complaining after that...
talking about spark plugs... cabri is certified with an electronic ingnition system of the last generation on the old lycoming.
Original:
"Je finirai par le sujet qui me fait sourire, mais j'ai peur qu'il n'intéresse personne : "le fric du contribuable".
J'ai quitté définitivement un emploi salarié stable et bien rémunéré, et arreté de cotiser à la retraite, dans une CPE - Certitude de Précarité Eternelle. Pour réunir les 3 Meuros de fonds propres que nous dépensons en ce moment, j'ai engagé dans la bonne humeur et l'aventure ce que je possèdais, la confiance et l'argent de mes 5 frères et soeurs, de 8 amis ingénieurs passionnés, et j'ai convaincu trois sociétés industrielles privées, dont Eurocopter.
Je suis incapable d'aller faire cela à l'étranger, mais cent fois, il m'a été affirmé que c'était la seule solution possible.
Heureusement, nous avons obtenu des aides à l'emploi et au développement, la plupart remboursables sur les ventes, et plusieurs garanties sur mes biens (qui n'y suffiraient pas au quart !). Il y a (qui a dit "il reste" ?) en France des fonctionnaires motivés pour l'aviation et l'industrie, sinon on serait tous bons pour importer du matériel chinois. Ou belge."
Translated:
I'll finish with the subject that make me laughing, but I'm afraid that nobody'll be interess in: "the taxpayer's money".
I definitively quit a salaried and stable position well pay and ceased to pay for the the retreat , social security. To put together the 3 Millions Euro that we're spending now, I engaged in happiness into this adventure all i had, confidence and money of my familly, plus 8 passionates ingeeners, and convince 3 industrials societies include eurocopter.
I'm not capable to do it in a foreign country, but 100 times, I heart that it was the only possibility.
Hopefully, we had aid to develop, reimbursable on the sells and manies garanties on my owns. there are still some state employers in France, motivated for aviation and industry, if not we would just have to import chinese material, or belgium.
by the way, I think or I heard that guimbal helicopter is very open mind to fit the cabri with an other engine regardless of performances/weight ratio and of course realiability, include diesel engines, waiting after the industry to design it i guess...
sorry Mister guimbal if this email bother you, just let me know I'll erase it immediately!
Last edited by singesavant; 23rd Jan 2008 at 23:05.
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Singesavant
I realise your post is a translation of a post on another forum, it's very easy to go getting all twisted about things that are written - our fellow forum members give more than enough examples.
I thought I was being quite positive - I rather like the Cabri and like it more as it has developed.
As I mentioned;
"I don't imagine the concept will have escaped the designer"
in other words "I'm sure Guimbal has looked at every option".
Not an attack by any means. I didn't mention the ignition system because I'm not familiar with what has been produced, but it sounds great in Captain Hollywood's translated posts.
I wasn't aware that Guimbal wasn't receiving any government funding. I'm surprised, given the French Government's traditional approach to global industries, but being an outsider causes problems all over the world. We only need to look as far as Robinson to see that new concepts are not always accepted.
I stand by my observation of Eurocopter's product support being terrible. Guimbal has other priorities at the moment, but developing a support network along Bell's model, or even Robinson's, would be an excellent long term goal.
I'm scheduled to visit France later this year, I'll definitely be swinging by for a look-see.
I realise your post is a translation of a post on another forum, it's very easy to go getting all twisted about things that are written - our fellow forum members give more than enough examples.
I thought I was being quite positive - I rather like the Cabri and like it more as it has developed.
As I mentioned;
"I don't imagine the concept will have escaped the designer"
in other words "I'm sure Guimbal has looked at every option".
Not an attack by any means. I didn't mention the ignition system because I'm not familiar with what has been produced, but it sounds great in Captain Hollywood's translated posts.
I wasn't aware that Guimbal wasn't receiving any government funding. I'm surprised, given the French Government's traditional approach to global industries, but being an outsider causes problems all over the world. We only need to look as far as Robinson to see that new concepts are not always accepted.
I stand by my observation of Eurocopter's product support being terrible. Guimbal has other priorities at the moment, but developing a support network along Bell's model, or even Robinson's, would be an excellent long term goal.
I'm scheduled to visit France later this year, I'll definitely be swinging by for a look-see.
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My intentions were not to be polemical and to judge couple of English speakers felllows, I just try to inform the cyclic's shaker community with some fresh news about the cabri wich seems for me such a nice concept and designed aircraft. I have nothing to see with the company guimbal even not for a single dime, it's just as a french native speaker I probably right now have more acces to information about the cabri and thus not because it's confidential, but just because most of them are in french.
So apoloziges if you had the feeling to be agressed, I have just translate as best as I could ( but very quickly, I'm working on my CFI and don't have that much time to spend beetween email for companies and lessons plans) an email which I thaugh was more or less corresponding to couple questions you asked yourself and to the community by the way.
I assume and accept that my english is not accurated enough to express my ideas and as well I wanted to deliver you guys the crudes words that Mr guimbal used into their origninal form to make them closer to his mind...
I agree with you points, no doubts and I still have some couple emails quite interresting from the Cabri's team talking about the clutch, why a fenestron and stuff!
I guess we are all looking in the same direction, there are very few new born helo and even less into the training/general aviation market, and we are probably all curoius to learn more about them so here is that thread;
I love the forums for the good infos you would hardly find out if they wouldn't exist, so thoses are my two cents.
Enjoy you flights guys!
So apoloziges if you had the feeling to be agressed, I have just translate as best as I could ( but very quickly, I'm working on my CFI and don't have that much time to spend beetween email for companies and lessons plans) an email which I thaugh was more or less corresponding to couple questions you asked yourself and to the community by the way.
I assume and accept that my english is not accurated enough to express my ideas and as well I wanted to deliver you guys the crudes words that Mr guimbal used into their origninal form to make them closer to his mind...
I agree with you points, no doubts and I still have some couple emails quite interresting from the Cabri's team talking about the clutch, why a fenestron and stuff!
I guess we are all looking in the same direction, there are very few new born helo and even less into the training/general aviation market, and we are probably all curoius to learn more about them so here is that thread;
I love the forums for the good infos you would hardly find out if they wouldn't exist, so thoses are my two cents.
Enjoy you flights guys!
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Why not a turbine engine?
Why are we constantly using piston when turbine is lighter, more reliable, less complex?
It may be more expensive initially but in the long run?
I met a guy not too long ago that has a TH-55 that is puttting a gas turbine engine in that was designed for a military platform that got canned.
The engines ( he bought 4 ) were brand new still in the ole bubble wrap, were being used for gen sets.
Blades were composite design.
Lots of weight removed, quieter, more power & reliability in place.
Carry bigger pilot folk & more fuel for longer flights.
Going to be registered under experimental.
So why not I ask a light/training helicopter?
HF
Why are we constantly using piston when turbine is lighter, more reliable, less complex?
It may be more expensive initially but in the long run?
I met a guy not too long ago that has a TH-55 that is puttting a gas turbine engine in that was designed for a military platform that got canned.
The engines ( he bought 4 ) were brand new still in the ole bubble wrap, were being used for gen sets.
Blades were composite design.
Lots of weight removed, quieter, more power & reliability in place.
Carry bigger pilot folk & more fuel for longer flights.
Going to be registered under experimental.
So why not I ask a light/training helicopter?
HF
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cabri g2
Singesavant
I hope to be able to purchase a Cabri g2 for private use. Any information you have on the viability, expected operating costs etc would be greatly appreciated. I have searched the web high up and low down for detailed independant reviews/information without much success.
I hope to be able to purchase a Cabri g2 for private use. Any information you have on the viability, expected operating costs etc would be greatly appreciated. I have searched the web high up and low down for detailed independant reviews/information without much success.
Not only is the initial cost (ie acquisition) much higher but the continual costs (ie maintenance & parts) are also much higher. Which is why (in the UK), R44s generally go out at £3-400ph and B206s are £5-600ph.
Last edited by Bravo73; 25th Jan 2008 at 17:33. Reason: Grammar
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Whats the tally?
I wonder, with all the tinkering and fouled plugs, magnetos, oil consumption, vibrations etc disliking cold start, that piston engines endure, are they really that more expensive to maintain?
If the true costs of a piston aircraft that has a reasonable share of "normal" problems were laid out & compared to turbine that runs "reasonably" well on an average, would the costs still be that much lower of a piston engine than a turbine?
based over a series of hours checked at certain increments I wonder how close they would come if at all.
Surely with all the advancements we have made with technology turbines are getting better too.
Here we are starting to use diesels, which is essentially a beefed up petrol engine running on oil, & can run the same oil that a turbine uses.
Have we not made small turbines more efficient and cheaper to run?
I find it hard to believe that turbines are being left behind in technology advancements & operational costs.
Whats the word, bird?
HF
If the true costs of a piston aircraft that has a reasonable share of "normal" problems were laid out & compared to turbine that runs "reasonably" well on an average, would the costs still be that much lower of a piston engine than a turbine?
based over a series of hours checked at certain increments I wonder how close they would come if at all.
Surely with all the advancements we have made with technology turbines are getting better too.
Here we are starting to use diesels, which is essentially a beefed up petrol engine running on oil, & can run the same oil that a turbine uses.
Have we not made small turbines more efficient and cheaper to run?
I find it hard to believe that turbines are being left behind in technology advancements & operational costs.
Whats the word, bird?
HF
HELOFAN,
I recently had a bearing in one of the turbine sections of an Alison 250 fail inflight. (Thankfully it wasn't critical because I was carrying a spare engine at the time.
)
The replacement part cost £45k.
You could probably buy a couple of new Lycomings for that.
As far as I know, replacement parts on newer generation turbine engines (ie Arriels or RR300s etc) aren't any cheaper.
I recently had a bearing in one of the turbine sections of an Alison 250 fail inflight. (Thankfully it wasn't critical because I was carrying a spare engine at the time.
)The replacement part cost £45k.
You could probably buy a couple of new Lycomings for that.As far as I know, replacement parts on newer generation turbine engines (ie Arriels or RR300s etc) aren't any cheaper.
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mesh1matrix2000
"I hope to be able to purchase a Cabri g2 for private use. Any information you have on the viability, expected operating costs etc would be greatly appreciated. I have searched the web high up and low down for detailed independant reviews/information without much success."
The major factor will be to place an oder, They plan to produce ten aircrafts this year and look like it 'll be hard to place order due to the demand... the first delivery is suppose to be marsh 2008; other factor could be the price around 240.000€.
But still seem to be classic for aviation so far; For the operating cost they plan and designed on similar cost than a R22 but not at the begining for the very first aircrafts due to the limited life components restrictions for safety reasons.
Can not find out an original email stating that, but I'm sure I read it...
blades are suppose to be unlimited life made of carbon.
From the first article translated by freewheel:
"For maintenance, Hélicoptères Guimbal aims a first visit at 100 hours, then one 500 H and a 4' 000 H, left major inspection. Lycoming requires a draining with change of the filters all the 50 H. The potentials aimed for the mechanical sets are of 4' 000 h. Bruno Guimbal indicates to want to manufacture a machine whose maintenance will not be compromised by calendar thrusts."
"I hope to be able to purchase a Cabri g2 for private use. Any information you have on the viability, expected operating costs etc would be greatly appreciated. I have searched the web high up and low down for detailed independant reviews/information without much success."
The major factor will be to place an oder, They plan to produce ten aircrafts this year and look like it 'll be hard to place order due to the demand... the first delivery is suppose to be marsh 2008; other factor could be the price around 240.000€.
But still seem to be classic for aviation so far; For the operating cost they plan and designed on similar cost than a R22 but not at the begining for the very first aircrafts due to the limited life components restrictions for safety reasons.
Can not find out an original email stating that, but I'm sure I read it...
blades are suppose to be unlimited life made of carbon.
From the first article translated by freewheel:
"For maintenance, Hélicoptères Guimbal aims a first visit at 100 hours, then one 500 H and a 4' 000 H, left major inspection. Lycoming requires a draining with change of the filters all the 50 H. The potentials aimed for the mechanical sets are of 4' 000 h. Bruno Guimbal indicates to want to manufacture a machine whose maintenance will not be compromised by calendar thrusts."
Last edited by singesavant; 25th Jan 2008 at 21:48.
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Helofan, the RR300 is designed to answer the market call for an affordable gas turbine. By taking a 250 and derating it the component specs can be reduced. Much of the development in a turbine is to get the first turbine stage to handle high combustion chamber temps. Less performance means lower temperatures. It will probably end up sitting between Lycoming and A250 for both performance and cost.
Later note:
As an automotive engines man in a former life, i find the whole certification process for aero piston engines slightly laughable. Admitedly i am not intimitely familiar with the process, but having a design freeze is just wrong. Each year automotive engines experiment with improved turbocharging techniques, coatings and materials. Even in derated form, required for aircraft reliability, the performance is becoming excellent. By not allowing this development to benefit aircraft the piston engines are being left behind - way way behind...
Later note:
As an automotive engines man in a former life, i find the whole certification process for aero piston engines slightly laughable. Admitedly i am not intimitely familiar with the process, but having a design freeze is just wrong. Each year automotive engines experiment with improved turbocharging techniques, coatings and materials. Even in derated form, required for aircraft reliability, the performance is becoming excellent. By not allowing this development to benefit aircraft the piston engines are being left behind - way way behind...
Last edited by Graviman; 26th Jan 2008 at 11:51.
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Singesavant
Thanks. Not in a position to order yet. I read somewhere that when the company get up and running they hope to produce 200 units per year if that level of demand ever exists.
Thanks. Not in a position to order yet. I read somewhere that when the company get up and running they hope to produce 200 units per year if that level of demand ever exists.