Civilian SAR Aircraft
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TOSH
Crab, tosh. yes the canadians did alter some of their SOPS agreed. As to you cant use the 101 in the hills or against a cliff tosh. the 101 is used very effectively in an urban environement and. like any helicopter, produces a downwash that the crews need to be aware of.
Secondly, have you ever sat over the water in a Merlin? you would know then that the downwash directly under the aircraft is NOT too severe at all, some refer to this doughnut effect - which is even better with BERP IV - please lets not reopen the BERP debate thank you.
On one of your earlier post you mentioned "SARH have to play the hand they are dealt - unless the Govt decide they want the capability to provide surge/concurrent ops then it won't happen". hate to tell you mate, but the SAR-H IPT have included Surge and concurrency in the competition - and it knocks spots off the current system!
I am surprised at you Crabb, despite the way you sometimes come accross you do normally believe in what you say and their is some truth in your words. But with this you are not right.
I agree with your mixed fleet analysis though.
Secondly, have you ever sat over the water in a Merlin? you would know then that the downwash directly under the aircraft is NOT too severe at all, some refer to this doughnut effect - which is even better with BERP IV - please lets not reopen the BERP debate thank you.
On one of your earlier post you mentioned "SARH have to play the hand they are dealt - unless the Govt decide they want the capability to provide surge/concurrent ops then it won't happen". hate to tell you mate, but the SAR-H IPT have included Surge and concurrency in the competition - and it knocks spots off the current system!
I am surprised at you Crabb, despite the way you sometimes come accross you do normally believe in what you say and their is some truth in your words. But with this you are not right.
I agree with your mixed fleet analysis though.
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SARREMF
I have to wonder where you got your ideas from when you decided to correct Crab. I have no experience with the EH101, but I have had time on the USCG HH60 fleet, and I can tell you it is a significantly worse winching platform than the Sea King/H3 because of hi rotor loading. And it certainly gave us more downwash problems in urban areas and beside other aircraft than the Sea King. I can only imagine that the EH101 at 20 to 30% heavier would be much worse.
As for your EH101 "doughtnut" theory. I'm new to this forum, but that comment makes me wonder if you have ever actually done any SAR work. Exactly how would you get all of a small boat into the doughnut without blowing it all over the place as you moved in? And where would the "doughnut" be in a standard 15kt wind day at sea? Presumably not directly under the aircraft.
I have to wonder where you got your ideas from when you decided to correct Crab. I have no experience with the EH101, but I have had time on the USCG HH60 fleet, and I can tell you it is a significantly worse winching platform than the Sea King/H3 because of hi rotor loading. And it certainly gave us more downwash problems in urban areas and beside other aircraft than the Sea King. I can only imagine that the EH101 at 20 to 30% heavier would be much worse.
As for your EH101 "doughtnut" theory. I'm new to this forum, but that comment makes me wonder if you have ever actually done any SAR work. Exactly how would you get all of a small boat into the doughnut without blowing it all over the place as you moved in? And where would the "doughnut" be in a standard 15kt wind day at sea? Presumably not directly under the aircraft.
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Crab
How much experience have you got in the Merlin?
Before I left the Royal Flying Club I garnered a couple of hundred hours on the aircraft including a small amount of winching (on the switch and t'other end), albeit just on an airfield and winching to the old tower. Flying pilot was an experienced ex Lossie pilot. No problems with downwash at all, on the end of the wire it just felt the same as the Sea King. Only problem was the position of the winch and having to swap hands from the tradional practise with the winch at the front. However Wastelands say they can put the winch anywhere yhe customer wants it.
The Merlin has been operated in the Highlands (that is the lumpy bits were real SAR crews work - DUCK!!) on a couple of detatchments quite successfully. In fact I believe the aforementioned pilot moved some MRT onto Ben Nevis with no complaints or problems.
So take the CFS badge of and return to reality.
How much experience have you got in the Merlin?
Before I left the Royal Flying Club I garnered a couple of hundred hours on the aircraft including a small amount of winching (on the switch and t'other end), albeit just on an airfield and winching to the old tower. Flying pilot was an experienced ex Lossie pilot. No problems with downwash at all, on the end of the wire it just felt the same as the Sea King. Only problem was the position of the winch and having to swap hands from the tradional practise with the winch at the front. However Wastelands say they can put the winch anywhere yhe customer wants it.
The Merlin has been operated in the Highlands (that is the lumpy bits were real SAR crews work - DUCK!!) on a couple of detatchments quite successfully. In fact I believe the aforementioned pilot moved some MRT onto Ben Nevis with no complaints or problems.
So take the CFS badge of and return to reality.
SARREMF - yes I do believe what I say, because I listen to the people who do the trials and give the feedback - not what the manufacturer claims. I certainly don't listen to the opinions of those with limited experience of SAR in all environments - winching on an airfield for crying out loud, that's just like a cliff or small boat - NOT.
A big helicopter with a small disc produces a huge downwash - that is a fact - the doughnut phenomenon allows you to trap a target in the downwash very effectively, BUT only when the wind is of exactly the correct strength to push the center of the downwash exactly under the winch; the rest of the time it is hindering you not helping you.
As for the CFS badge, at the point I am considered unworthy of it I will stop wearing it.
Thanks inputshaft
As far as SARH goes - their response to a question about surge and concurrency was vague, evasive and worthy of Tony Bliar. They will need a lot of aircraft to 'knock the spots off' what we can do now, especially if the military element is to be decimated.
A big helicopter with a small disc produces a huge downwash - that is a fact - the doughnut phenomenon allows you to trap a target in the downwash very effectively, BUT only when the wind is of exactly the correct strength to push the center of the downwash exactly under the winch; the rest of the time it is hindering you not helping you.
As for the CFS badge, at the point I am considered unworthy of it I will stop wearing it.
Thanks inputshaft
As far as SARH goes - their response to a question about surge and concurrency was vague, evasive and worthy of Tony Bliar. They will need a lot of aircraft to 'knock the spots off' what we can do now, especially if the military element is to be decimated.
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My limited experience on SAR other than an airfield was a tour at Boulmer, instructing at RAFSKTU (RNAS Culdrose), double tour at Lossie, over 4000hrs, plus instructing SAR in the Middle East. Yes I bit but enjoyed it.
By the way Crab back to my original question how much time have you on the Merlin and lets forget the theory of flight for helicopters this time.
Regards
Wiretensioner
By the way Crab back to my original question how much time have you on the Merlin and lets forget the theory of flight for helicopters this time.
Regards
Wiretensioner
Wiretensioner - I have no Merlin time at all but you should know better than to use your experience on the end of the wire over an airfield as a basis for stating it will make a good SAR machine in all environments.
I didn't say it couldn't get into the mountains or land MR but with a downwash like that it is unsuitable for a lot of cliff and mountain rescues. You'll be saying we should do SAR on the Chinook next.
I had a cliff faller last Wednesday who was stuck on a ledge 100' down from the top and 150' up from the bottom of a very steep climbing area. It was interesting enough getting the winchman safely onto the ledge without the added embuggerance of introducing more downwash and turbulence to the area.
I didn't say it couldn't get into the mountains or land MR but with a downwash like that it is unsuitable for a lot of cliff and mountain rescues. You'll be saying we should do SAR on the Chinook next.
I had a cliff faller last Wednesday who was stuck on a ledge 100' down from the top and 150' up from the bottom of a very steep climbing area. It was interesting enough getting the winchman safely onto the ledge without the added embuggerance of introducing more downwash and turbulence to the area.
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The downwash discussion is really not about absolute weight alone, it is more the disk loading that drives downwash velocity (weight drives the volume of air that rides at the downwash speed).
The S61/H3 has a lot less downwash speed, its disk loading is about 35% less than an EH101 or an S92, and the downwash velocity goes with the square root of the disk loading, so the 101 is perhaps 15% higher velocity than the S61. The S92 and EH101 are within 10% of each other, the 101 a bit more.
The 92's downwash is clearly more than an H3's, but not so much greater that it needs a great deal more thought. I would believe the 101 to be that way, too. More downwash that an S61, but not disqualifying.
OK, write down the date, I said something good about the 101....
The S61/H3 has a lot less downwash speed, its disk loading is about 35% less than an EH101 or an S92, and the downwash velocity goes with the square root of the disk loading, so the 101 is perhaps 15% higher velocity than the S61. The S92 and EH101 are within 10% of each other, the 101 a bit more.
The 92's downwash is clearly more than an H3's, but not so much greater that it needs a great deal more thought. I would believe the 101 to be that way, too. More downwash that an S61, but not disqualifying.
OK, write down the date, I said something good about the 101....
SARREMF and wiretensioner - look at post #863 by oryxs on the S92 thread - he has an interesting comment regarding fierce downwash and SAR. As Nick has said, the S92 and Merlin have very similar disc loadings! Still in denial?
de crocodiles is in denial
Oryxs said of the S92:
'It does however have a big down draft. Have seen some of the smaller rescue specialists hanging on for dear life during operations with a guide line'
Nick Lappos said of the S92 and EH101:
'The S61/H3 has a lot less downwash speed, its disk loading is about 35% less than an EH101 or an S92, and the downwash velocity goes with the square root of the disk loading, so the 101 is perhaps 15% higher velocity than the S61. The S92 and EH101 are within 10% of each other, the 101 a bit more.
Yet you maintain the Merlin is suitable for all the SAR jobs that the Sea King currently performs. Illogical Captain...
'It does however have a big down draft. Have seen some of the smaller rescue specialists hanging on for dear life during operations with a guide line'
Nick Lappos said of the S92 and EH101:
'The S61/H3 has a lot less downwash speed, its disk loading is about 35% less than an EH101 or an S92, and the downwash velocity goes with the square root of the disk loading, so the 101 is perhaps 15% higher velocity than the S61. The S92 and EH101 are within 10% of each other, the 101 a bit more.
Yet you maintain the Merlin is suitable for all the SAR jobs that the Sea King currently performs. Illogical Captain...
No, I never give up and No it's not quite in the SW approaches but it is quiet
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Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all modern heavy types that are currently available that might replace the mighty King (92, 225, 101) have high disk loadings? So downwash issues are going to have to become a fact of life and some lateral thinking might be required to develope new SOPs. What works for the Sea King might not work in the newer types.
What concerns me is that the newer types seem to be designed as a passenger transport machine and optimised for that role. As far as I can see, the Sea King was designed to hover over the sea and was optimised for that. Is the poling on these new types next to a cliff/downwind of a mountain/over a dead ship in the Atlantic going to be easier than on the SK? Certainly the extra power (on paper at least) will be useful. Only time will tell.
What concerns me is that the newer types seem to be designed as a passenger transport machine and optimised for that role. As far as I can see, the Sea King was designed to hover over the sea and was optimised for that. Is the poling on these new types next to a cliff/downwind of a mountain/over a dead ship in the Atlantic going to be easier than on the SK? Certainly the extra power (on paper at least) will be useful. Only time will tell.
Droopystop - I think you are entirely correct - hence the need for a mixed fleet with the big aircraft used for longrange and large scale evacuation work and the smaller ones for inland, cliff, mountain etc stuff. Strangely much like we had with the Wessex and Sea King a few years ago and in keeping with what the MCA have got now (S92 oop north and AW139 dahn saarf)
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Crabb, finally I can agree with you. Yes I agree mixed fleet. yes I agree long range large ac samller short range. I have over 5500hrs all SAR. I have flown Sea King extensively and I now have some time on the 101, its just not as big an issue as yu make out. But this debate is very similar to the Whirlwind Wessex then Wessex Sea King debate.
Surge and concurrency is a clearly laid down requirement.
One other thing as I sit here and watch a SK go past the window again - major flooding in this part of the world at the moment - Thank you boys and girls you do a cracking job and long may it last and long may we have a civil miltitary mix.
Some of us are actively trying to make sure that continues - in the background in the right places.
One final thing. CRABB I know you, you deserve the CFS badge, you did not deserve that comment about removing it from the other poster. Keep it on.
I still think the 101 could have done all the jobs in Evesham, Worcester and the such like.
Perhaps I ought to arrange for you to fly one Crabb?
Surge and concurrency is a clearly laid down requirement.
One other thing as I sit here and watch a SK go past the window again - major flooding in this part of the world at the moment - Thank you boys and girls you do a cracking job and long may it last and long may we have a civil miltitary mix.
Some of us are actively trying to make sure that continues - in the background in the right places.
One final thing. CRABB I know you, you deserve the CFS badge, you did not deserve that comment about removing it from the other poster. Keep it on.
I still think the 101 could have done all the jobs in Evesham, Worcester and the such like.
Perhaps I ought to arrange for you to fly one Crabb?