What helicopter for SAR in Norway?
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What helicopter for SAR in Norway?
The NH90 is off the shortlist, EC225 mentioned by government representative. New aircraft to enter service 2011-2014.
Press release and news article, in norwegian only:
http://odin.dep.no/jd/norsk/tema/ber...02/dok-bu.html
http://web3.aftenbladet.no/innenriks/article406380.ece
Press release and news article, in norwegian only:
http://odin.dep.no/jd/norsk/tema/ber...02/dok-bu.html
http://web3.aftenbladet.no/innenriks/article406380.ece
Interesting stuff.
It has been known for some time that the NH90 does not meet the requiriements set by "Helikopterfaglig forum" commitee so the decision was not a total suprise but its good to know that the government has come to a conclusion.
The EC225 is only mentioned as one of the possible candidates and in my opinion will barely meet the requirments set by the "HF" commitee.
It will be interesting to see what happens and the outcome of the bidding process by the 3 or 4 large helicopter manufacturers and how they will propose to meet the needs for Norwegian SAR.
It is expecially interesting as it has been proposed that Iceland will be a partner in a joint bidding process for a new SAR helicopter as our needs are similar.
It has been known for some time that the NH90 does not meet the requiriements set by "Helikopterfaglig forum" commitee so the decision was not a total suprise but its good to know that the government has come to a conclusion.
The EC225 is only mentioned as one of the possible candidates and in my opinion will barely meet the requirments set by the "HF" commitee.
It will be interesting to see what happens and the outcome of the bidding process by the 3 or 4 large helicopter manufacturers and how they will propose to meet the needs for Norwegian SAR.
It is expecially interesting as it has been proposed that Iceland will be a partner in a joint bidding process for a new SAR helicopter as our needs are similar.
In my opinion the type is irrelevant as long as the helicopter meets the requirements of which one is that it has to be civilian certified.
A joint venture with Norway could save both countries some money and provide a very capable helicopter.
A joint venture with Norway could save both countries some money and provide a very capable helicopter.
Just a couple of minor points.
I think you will find that the NH-90 is not off the shortlist, as there is no such list as the moment. The intention appears to be to start afresh with a new bidding round, this time for a real SAR helicopter. I am sure NH-90 is more than welcome to compete, if they feel they can meet the requirements.
The spec for the NAWSARH (Norwegian All-Weather SAR helicopter) may be found here, but as always - only in Norwegian.
http://www.acg.no/getfile.php/256052...gstjeneste.doc
The first part details the concept and tasks, the equipment requirements are at the end of the document.
And this document does not require that the helicopter shall be civilian certified, military qualification will do nicely.
And for anyone particularily interested, this is the general operating concept for the helicopter, for once in a kind of English!
http://www.acg.no/getfile.php/256053...stjenesten.pdf
I think you will find that the NH-90 is not off the shortlist, as there is no such list as the moment. The intention appears to be to start afresh with a new bidding round, this time for a real SAR helicopter. I am sure NH-90 is more than welcome to compete, if they feel they can meet the requirements.
The spec for the NAWSARH (Norwegian All-Weather SAR helicopter) may be found here, but as always - only in Norwegian.
http://www.acg.no/getfile.php/256052...gstjeneste.doc
The first part details the concept and tasks, the equipment requirements are at the end of the document.
And this document does not require that the helicopter shall be civilian certified, military qualification will do nicely.
And for anyone particularily interested, this is the general operating concept for the helicopter, for once in a kind of English!
http://www.acg.no/getfile.php/256053...stjenesten.pdf
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I agree with Aesir, it really doesn't matter which type to choose as long as it meets the requirements set and has acceptable parts support.
Iceland has its own requirements and from that list I think the Coast Guard will have to choose between 3 types and they are:
the EC-225, EH101 and S-92.
I think that the S-92 and the EH101 lead the EC-225 in case of range in high winds. Those two can carry a lot more useful stuff (like Go juice, jumper cables and laughing gas) than the EC-225 and that must count in the SAR environment.
Iceland has its own requirements and from that list I think the Coast Guard will have to choose between 3 types and they are:
the EC-225, EH101 and S-92.
I think that the S-92 and the EH101 lead the EC-225 in case of range in high winds. Those two can carry a lot more useful stuff (like Go juice, jumper cables and laughing gas) than the EC-225 and that must count in the SAR environment.
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My guess is that the Dept of Justice now will be talking to those who operate the EC225, the S92 and the EH101, not only looking at numbers and pics in the sales brochures, which seems to have been the case with the NH90.
Always better to make a decision based on hard facts..
Always better to make a decision based on hard facts..
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Interesting
Just spoke to friend of mine from Denmark and he informed me that the Danish authority have got 8 EH 101 and 2 of them are in pieces used as spare parts. This is maybe not going to say any thing at all, just a point in discussions 
How is it that when we hear these stories of aircraft not working, it is almost only from the military?
Do they just buy bad aircraft, -or are they possibly unable to use or maintain them properly? Or perhaps after having bought such nice, expencive aircraft, they can not afford enough spares or a proper support contract?
Mostly, the civilians seem to be able to keep the aircraft running, in spite of a few difficulties. I believe the S-92s do at least 1200-1500 hours each per year. That does not allow for much sitting in the hangar.
Do civilians do things differently? Or perhaps they just keep quiet about their problems?
Do they just buy bad aircraft, -or are they possibly unable to use or maintain them properly? Or perhaps after having bought such nice, expencive aircraft, they can not afford enough spares or a proper support contract?
Mostly, the civilians seem to be able to keep the aircraft running, in spite of a few difficulties. I believe the S-92s do at least 1200-1500 hours each per year. That does not allow for much sitting in the hangar.
Do civilians do things differently? Or perhaps they just keep quiet about their problems?
It's Deju' Vu all over again
If you can go back to the mid 1990’s one will find that not much has changed. Norway disseminated a SAR requirements document to industry and participated in the Nordic acquisition program. More than ten years later they are beginning anew. The past requirements were very demanding and Norway was unbending. As a result, Norway elected not to continue with full participation in the Nordic program and go it alone in selecting the NH-90. In the end the Nordic program (Sweden, Finland) decision followed Norway in selecting the NH-90. Norway did not consider the S-70, S-92 or the EH-101 suitable for their requirements. Denmark similarly decided early and went against the Nordic decision and selected the EH-101. Street rumors at the time indicated that the Sikorsky H-92 was a clear front runner if not the competition winner. Flash back to the future. The S-92 has been successfully certified and fielded. Any Norwegian decision in the future will most probably be 90% political and 10% operational. 
[QUOTE]Street rumors at the time indicated that the Sikorsky H-92 was a clear front runner if not the competition winner.[/QUOT
Still is in my and many others opinion... The S-92 fleet has now logged over 40000 hrs with(let's face it)only minor birth problems,
though few ppruners think else
EH-101 is just too big...and what will three engines give you over two??
more maintenance? more fuel consump? more complex gerabox? don't know
I put S-92 first but EC-225 very close behind... but like you said this will be political decision so we could end up with MI-17
Still is in my and many others opinion... The S-92 fleet has now logged over 40000 hrs with(let's face it)only minor birth problems,
though few ppruners think else
EH-101 is just too big...and what will three engines give you over two??
more maintenance? more fuel consump? more complex gerabox? don't know
I put S-92 first but EC-225 very close behind... but like you said this will be political decision so we could end up with MI-17
I think the S-92 has to be in front, look at whats happening now in the North Sea area: the first CHC SAR S-92 is in production/fitout now -so you will have commonality in SAR types, NORSK is the high time user in the world based in Sola/Stavanger, CHC/HS also based at Sola/Stavangar have a large S-92 fleet and the headquarters of 330 skn (the SAR Sqn) is at Sola/Stavanger, all that experience,expertice and facilities in one place why choose something else!!!
But why use logic, the politicians don't!!
Just look at Australia, Logic and most people in the Military wanted UH-60M's and Apache's but noooooo the poli's chose the Tiger and NH90.
But why use logic, the politicians don't!!
Just look at Australia, Logic and most people in the Military wanted UH-60M's and Apache's but noooooo the poli's chose the Tiger and NH90.
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The "minor" problems with the S92 will most likely disappear when they develop the five blade rotor system. To finance such an investment, they need a large contract, which they don't have yet. The prestigious contract for the White House helicopter slipped away, and now the USAF chose the Boeing for combat sar. In my opinion, the EC225 just have to prove range and payload to top the list.
The NRAF desperately wanted the NH90 so that they could keep the civilian companies out of the market for the next 40 years, and used every opportunity to market their agenda. Chanses are that they stepped on a few toes within the government, which now might be looking at going civilian again, like it was in the '70. That way the can spend as they go, and change type every 10 years if it's deemed nessesary.
Politics? You bet, all the way...
The NRAF desperately wanted the NH90 so that they could keep the civilian companies out of the market for the next 40 years, and used every opportunity to market their agenda. Chanses are that they stepped on a few toes within the government, which now might be looking at going civilian again, like it was in the '70. That way the can spend as they go, and change type every 10 years if it's deemed nessesary.
Politics? You bet, all the way...
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I,m not entirely convinced that a fifth blade will do anything. You make one change and you have to follow up on the other components.
A fifth blade will most certanly increase drag in the rotorsystem. You then have to boost the engines in order to have the same performance, strenghten the gearbox and transmission. I have no doubt that it can be done, but are they willing to accept the weight penalties?
As someone mentioned earlier, I hope they find the aircraft best suited for the mission.
Rotordude
A fifth blade will most certanly increase drag in the rotorsystem. You then have to boost the engines in order to have the same performance, strenghten the gearbox and transmission. I have no doubt that it can be done, but are they willing to accept the weight penalties?
As someone mentioned earlier, I hope they find the aircraft best suited for the mission.
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Those who know little about helicopters can actually believe that the number of blades is a measure of fitness. Those who know something about helicopters are not so easily fooled.
Those who make 5 bladed helicopters sucker those who know little about helicopters by telling them fairey tales about the number of blades.
Either that, or all you poor sods who fly 4, 3 or even (gasp!) 2 bladed helicopters should run from them immediately!
So far, the problem with the S-92 is getting them to the customers fast enough, it is out-selling the 225 by about ten to one.
Regarding Norwegian SAR, the mission is brutal, 400 NM radius of action, all weather, with large pick-up capability. It is at the edge of the EH-101 and S-92, and probably beyond all other smaller helos. Frankly, it is close to the USAF CSAR in payload/range/hover requirements.
Those who make 5 bladed helicopters sucker those who know little about helicopters by telling them fairey tales about the number of blades.
Either that, or all you poor sods who fly 4, 3 or even (gasp!) 2 bladed helicopters should run from them immediately!
So far, the problem with the S-92 is getting them to the customers fast enough, it is out-selling the 225 by about ten to one.
Regarding Norwegian SAR, the mission is brutal, 400 NM radius of action, all weather, with large pick-up capability. It is at the edge of the EH-101 and S-92, and probably beyond all other smaller helos. Frankly, it is close to the USAF CSAR in payload/range/hover requirements.
Rotorrookie,your point is well taken. Ten years after the Nordic program was conceived, the loosing contender has succeeded to a position where it is the only operationally successful helicopter in the region. In the meantime, the NH-90 struggles with many operational aspects of its program while continuing to excel in sales. Twenty five percent of Denmark’s EH-101 fleet is committed as parts bins to support their operating aircraft. It is obvious that NH Industries and Agusta Westland made unsupportable promises to their respective operational customers. Someone in the region has to have benefited from these procurement decisions. It surely is not the operators. 
Regarding Norwegian SAR, the mission is brutal, 400 NM radius of action, all weather, with large pick-up capability. It is at the edge of the EH-101 and S-92, and probably beyond all other smaller helos.
OR is it not JAR approved on S-92 or not approved at all?
That would without doubt be useful here in mid atlantic and make the deal for Sikorsky
On quite few occasion in the past the US Navy Pave Hawks flew missions from KEF navy base that extended far beond normal reach of any helicopter, think the longest where around 800 or 900 NM
New SAR helicopters for Norway
The prequalification process for procurement of up to 25 helicopters (including helicopter(s)for Iceland and the options) was finally announced - on the 24th of October.
The Requirement Document, which sums up in English most of the capabilites expected may be found here: http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/JD/...092011_web.pdf
Other project news may be followed here: About the project - regjeringen.no
The Requirement Document, which sums up in English most of the capabilites expected may be found here: http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/JD/...092011_web.pdf
Other project news may be followed here: About the project - regjeringen.no
Rotorrookie,
You mean the USAF 56th Rescue Squadron HH-60G Pave Hawks
And they had air to air refuelling probes to pair up with the rotating HC-130 Combat Shadow tankers
You mean the USAF 56th Rescue Squadron HH-60G Pave Hawks
And they had air to air refuelling probes to pair up with the rotating HC-130 Combat Shadow tankers