Desert Alligator

Nothing to do with the thread but very much aimed at Lynx drivers - still a few prints left of the attack on Platinum 2. If you want one just fill out the form on the 4 Reg website at www.4regimentaac.co.uk - don't send any money yet, though. We'll be in touch when the prints get here (next 10 days).

By the way enjoyed the IPT Roadshow tremendously but couldn't possibly comment.

staticdroop

Absolute frustration is all that roadshow/circus brought with it.
Every question posed was met with a tale of how nothing was certain but, FLUH is a capable aircraft and Blackhawk was a support helo and the RAF would get it?
Somebody somewhere tell us the truth.

Ray Jinardon

Capable? Like when 'they' said it’d carry eight troops with kit.

Q asked by a good friend of mine "have you increased the size of the cabin then?"

A. Err...no! But we looked into it.

Call me Mr Picky but that has always been a prob with the cab, space not power.

1975 Westlands press release: Lynx can carry nine fully equipped troops or eight TOW plus eight reloads and have an endurance of three hours. Prove me wrong, Yeovil! I can with over 2000 hours on type.

Sorry to shatter the illusion, that has never happened. (Well maybe but an endurance of 15 mins is ****** all use to anyone)

If 'they' had been honest by telling us that there is no wonger in the kitty for a new cab and they are just going to 'cut and shut' the existing version it might have been an easier pill to swallow. But they expected us to believe their total twoddle that they will be all new frames (using 30-year-old jigs and technology).

Don't get me wrong, the Lynx is a top PILOTS aircraft but shag all use in the designated role, utility heli. Describe what that means? An aircraft that will split 'S' on demand? Or an aircraft that will fully integrate and support the AH for it's proposed life span?

Can of worms now; I hate to admit it but that spams have been doing very well thank you very much with the Blackhawk/Apache team. Or is the word 'Blackhawk' a dirty word in Yeovil (whatever happened to their venture with Sikorsky on that one?) OK the Blackhawk isn’t exactly light but it would seem to be able to perform all our requirements now and in the future when our role changes yet again. Looking ahead isn’t a dirty word. C17 is in the inventory now don't you know. That's an answer to another Q by the brainwashed answer I was given that it had to fit in a C130. Total arse!

I heard alot of 'The existing Lynx was designed for Cold War scenario's, we need an aircraft that will fit into the current and future British Army role of utility across many theatres'. Sorry, unless you want an aircraft that taxi's the General and his merry men around and nothing else, then the current GTI version is all you need. But if you want an aircraft that is capable of REALLY carrying 8 troops with kit/has range and performance to complete a useful mission and is able to be upgraded at half life then the current resprayed model is not the one to go for. I'd rather slam my knob in a door!

Lynx 3, the Westlands private venture some years ago is half way to the answer. If the govn't really still wants to bail out the flagging company then they should invest in this kind of thing.

My belief though is that the majority of Westlands work is with export Navy Lynx not an Army platform, never has been. I'll not even mention the CMRB saga! We know where we stand then.

I shall repeat, does the British Army want an aircraft that can complement and support the AH and the Army in general or an aircraft that isn’t right even after 24 years of service?

Imagine a battle group consisting of Challenger II's and FV432's (resprayed) supporting each other, laughable isn’t it! The Gens would f*%k that off at the high port! This is what Westlands/Govn't is expecting us to take on board with WAH/BLUH.

Let’s take the faults of the current Lynx in today’s climate.

Battleworthiness: *****, a ******* farmer with a shotgun could take it out with all the vital systems in one nice convenient area (hyd x2, alt x2, gearbox, oh nearly forgot, control runs an all, all placed conviniently in an area the size of a 1/4 mil map, '57 will vouch for how safe that is). Engines and TRDS no 1, same as the last comment.

Crashworthiness: (Westlands answer, stick big springs in the armoured seat for f*%k sake!!). As crashworhty as a wet tea bag. CW HAS to be built into the design from day one, week one.

Serviceability: Dirty word in our world, even after 24 years it's worse than a Wessex! (Analogy; F1 car's are awesome but if after a year or two you don't bother to invest in its servicing, it will become a museum piece. Complex bit of kit with high performance requires lots and lots of time/effort to keep it at its peak).

Design: Nice.....For 1970...whatever. I don't care how many black boxes you stick in it, it's still crap for its role!
Gems even after 20 odd years, I still get fire sections trying to put me out on shut down when visiting aways. I've been banned from several German airfields due to 'enviromental issues'.

Role: LUH/Recce, The TI! Those who know, know where I'm coming from! I can fit me, pilot and a NAAFI break in the cab but fly for 2.5 though! Stick anyone useful in the back and it turns into me taking anyone to work more than two a shambles. Those who know me will know wher I'm coming from!

I could go on endlessly. But I won't.

Now I know that all of the above will be totally ignored, no matter what WE want or need because the company in question gets it's own way regardless. It sells us what they want to sell us not what we want or need. Politics.

To summarise. The Brit Army/Forces need an aircraft that can fulfil the role between WAH and Merlin, operated by the Army. The 'sold as told' version is so far short of those requirements, it's unbelievable (believable if you know the Westlands/Govnt relationship). Look in the short term and you will pay later. The cheapest option is not always the cheapest option in the long run. On the reverse side, we didn't need ALL Longbow, if we'd gone for 50%, we could have bought into an aviation package.......AH/LUH. But what the f*&k, I'm not on commission, so what do I know! Lynx...top cab for exercise 98 and 99 on auth but shag all use in the role we have today. But we've been told that’s what we're getting all be it with a body kit and ICE.

ol_ben, expect your views on this and I know I still have your smock, it's in the post! Call me on the usual.

Alfie...just another cat 5 for you!

CBR.....What do you care now! IR/Multi/Proc rated!

Murph....212's are an option!

Any probs, speak to my lawyer.

I know, I know, defence spending ain't what it was but if anything comes out of the current situation, a few more pounds (euros, what the f*%k is that all about!?) would be most useful.

Sorry for the long post but it needed to be said, you all thought it. (Probably!)

Helmut Visorcover

http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...&f=46&t=001284

May I refer you to this link. or is it all complete B0lI0Cks!

I'd heard the MAUM would be increased to 55.. something or other. I'll buy that for a pound. Hang on, wouldn't the dry weight go up as well? Giving us exactly what as a usable? The same maybe? Or less listening to the crap spieled by the 'IPT'.

I'm happy with that, Wastelands. Sell us our own cabs that we already own! Sounds like top business practice.

Wastelands, a question; what DID you do to the Rotodyne once you took over Fairey? You know, that marvel of cutting edge technology in the '60's.

Sounds like a bunch of Swiss Tony's in shiny grey suits to me. 'Selling a helicopter is very much like making love to a beautiful woman, fine wines, Belgium chocolates.....'

Or 'B'...croc of 5h!te.

Elloquence and politness is the trademark of breeding, but the curse of being to the f u c k i n g point and making f u c k wits understand what the f u c k your trying to say! Rudeblerk lives.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Helmut Visorcover ]

Jackonicko

Where's the fun in 'slamming your knob in a door?'

I've just tried it, and I'd rather have the `Lynx effect' thanks......

pint to full

Ray, good post.

As i recall Lynx were good for pulling the odd slit S over Bessbrook but recently things seem to drop off them when your doing a sight picture approach!

Just think if the Americans had gone the same way as us they would be looking at the super (OH 58D) Kiowa now instead of the Commanche, imagine designing a new helicopter from scatch to fill the role, must be barking.

Ramp Monkey

PLOP!
Who gives a fuc£ if it hasn't got a professionally trained aviator in the back then it ain't worth carrying troops in !

KentBrockman

And there was me thinking it was great to be a lynx pilot. Good job i didnt apply for conversion, id still be flying that piece of crap when im 55. Enjoy Lardies, its all yours.

RAMP, where are the professional aviators in the back? Dont forget to check your harness! Tail clear, closing door, swan around like im important and try to impress the pax. I guess i must be a professional aviator when im on a jet going on my hols, im in the back but i never closed the door, some BIRD did it. professional aviator HA HA HA HA

Robin Hood

Face it guys, whether you are Fish head, Pongo or Crab, we have to accept that the tax payer will only fund us for the cheapest airship that keeps UKPLC afloat.

Once you have accepted that, then the job is actually quite a breeze. You get to do an interesting and challenging job for the Queen's shilling; ocassionally risking life and limb to protect the Prime Minister's Ar**.

No different to civvy street, except that you get a decent pension at the end of it?

Sumo664

An interesting topic this one and on a subject that is very dear to my heart at the moment. What exactly are the 8 x BLUH in an Attack Helicopter Regt for?
My personal thoughts are something like:
1. Liaison - moving various members of the Sqns/BG/Bde around for O-groups etc.
2. Limited movement of men and materiel - vital spares, special tools, replacement crews, MPS, etc.
3. Recce - of FARPs, FOBs, etc
4. Airborne C2/Relay - probably a Sqn/BG Comd team in the back ideally with the same display as in the AH. Having seen a few 16 Bde exercises I believe that this will be a v important task.
5. CSAR - maybe?
As part of an Inf (Para!) BG also probably used to insert and extract patrols/platoons, Casevac, etc.
Also no doubt the country will want to maintain some light lift capability for SF and PSO type tasking.
Looking at all the above tasks its interesting to debate what type of helicopter might fit the bill, and what type of fits it might need. Whilst Blackhawk will no doubt do all of the above my personal feeling is that it is a bit OTT (and therefore too expensive!) Now I'm not a 'it must be Lynx' man either but I think that a Mk 9 Lynx does fit the profile I've detailed. Obviously with the caveat that they need to sort out the serviceability, stop them from randomly falling out of the sky, make it more crashworthy, etc.
I think the important thing though is that we actually decide what we want this ac to do rather than just blindly demanding whatever we think is the current sexiest aircraft available.
Tied in with that is the necessity to ensure that the aircraft has the right equipment and for my money the big debate is the need to have a sight. Or rather the fact that I believe it will be a complete waste of money/weight. None of the tasks I have outlined need a sight however we do need to be able to to talk to the AH and that means a data modem and ideally the full display too.
Looking forward to a few replies....

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: Sumo664 ]

Helmut Visorcover

Sumo, if the answer was the Mk 9, all be it modified to the quite reasonable spec/tasks you outlined, I believe the money spent on trying to rehash a 30 year old flawed design would be far greater than starting from scratch/looking else where. The cost of renovating a 15th century cottage would be twice the cost of buying new!

I think the answer has already been given to us by way of the briefing/sales pitch from the Lynx team. "Your getting Lynx, 5h!t, bust". In fact, " Your getting the same Lynx we flogged you 25 years ago with a Carol Smilie makeover, 5h!t, bust".

Not entirely their (Wastlelands) fault. As was pointed out earlier, pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

How long ago was this idea of a replacement for Lynx put up? Prior to AH plan?

I firmly believe that it was on the cards a long time before but the rising cost of AH (that’s the way these programmes always go) has led to no coffers in the pot for a complete 'aviation' package. I.e.; Dedicated Attack platform and battlefield multi role heli. When I say multi role, I refer you to all that Sumo has mentioned. Not jack of all trades and master of none, such is the twin engined throb monster we have today and tomorrow. But an aircraft that can fill all future AAC jobs, less AH.

Lets break down the proposed role of the new BLUH. Sumo, I'll do it in your order.

1. Liaison- proposed can do this task- whoopee do!
2. Limited movement of men and material- very limited! Sure we don’t need Chinook like attributes, that’s what they are there for but I would suggest that the cabin space will always limit the user to 5 or 6 chaps kitted for no more than light ops. Now I'm not trying to step on SH feet but how would taking a warrior section, complete, sound. A lot more useful for a commander on the ground. Will the current Lynx/Future BLUH be able to carry a complete AH engine? It only just fits a current Gem in the back. Will it be able to replen the AH ammunition to a realistic level as opposed to a couple of 30mm and 4 AT natures? Or are we relying on outside agencies (RAF SH, not a dig but 'in unit' independence is the way ahead).
3. Recce. From my memory, no mention was made of the type of sighting system to be employed. In my experience, the current TI/Tow sight is as much use as t!ts on a fish! No secret there. There isn’t much scope to fit anything currently available as a retro fit to improve this situation.
4. Updated avionics. We all heard how 'they' are going to increase the MAUM with the new engines. Did nobody ask what the new dry weight will be with all the proposed goodies on board? So, a usable less than what we have already.
5. CSAR. The way ahead in my opinion. If your going to stick a piece of hardware further forward (AH), you must expect that crews are going to be a little bit further away than the range of SSM's Landrover for recovery should the poo hit the fan. The proposed cannot fill this role. In respect of;
a. Self defence; 1 or 2 x GPMG is not acceptable in an environment that has brought down an AH.
b. Survivability; 20 B+H dropped from 2' has more chance! As has been pointed out, this NEEDS to be designed in from day 1, week 1. Not blagged by making the hyd/alts a little bit tougher/wrapping them in kevlar and adding big springs in the seat!

The point of inserting a patrol has already been highlighted. How far do you want to take them and what kit are they going to have? If your talking four blokes with a NAAFI break then fine but if you need a pukker bunch of chaps with all the kit that is required to do a decent job than we're talking about an aircraft that needs at least 900kg spare for about 2 hours. With a very hasty bit of maths that concludes that the airframe has to be 3600Kg (300kg crew inc self defence door gunner, 600kg/100kg MLA fuel (looking at more efficient engines). This is based on the figure given of 5500kg MAUM. Any Lynx jocks know of a cab currently that has that as a dry weight? Pipe dream!
SF, not going there but we currently have Lynx-Chinook, nothing in between. Ol-benkenobi, you know where I'm coming from!

Do we need to look at inflight refuelling? or a capacity to fit retro long range tanks? No, I don’t mean a couple of ten gallon drums in lieu of the six man seat.

What do we want?

Food for thought if I may. Money no option on a car, what would you buy for max performance/load carrying/value for money? I'd go for a Renault Espace with a Ferrari engine built by Volkswagen. You surely wouldn't buy an Austin Allegro (with body kit) with a Ford engine built by Lada would you. Get used to it, that’s what’s going to happen!

If anything comes out of the latest shindig out East, the voting public might sway towards giving the MoD a couple more quid for defence of the Realm, but I very much doubt it, the deal is done.......Lynx GTi Mk II, I've already ordered my Steve/Tracy windscreen sticker!


P.S Westlands, prey tell us the story with regards to why you decided to design the tail rotor the wrong way round the first time. Know something every other heli manufacturer didn't?

Give a boy a mans job............


:o

Sumo664

Helmut
Thanks for your reply and I thought you made some valid points. I'm as aware as everyone else (are you listening in Yeovil!) of the limitations of Lynx in its various guises. What I was trying to do is to try and discuss what the roles of the BLUH will be not how crap Lynx will be at them!
In particular to address a few points you made:
1. Although you say whoppee do - actually an extremely important task and one likely to occupy a lot of the flying hours on exercise I think.
2. when you say a warrior section - do you mean as in 9 blokes to fit in an AFV? If so I guess u must be in 1 Regt!
Personally I think we should be getting away from the concept that BLUH will be delivering combat power around the battlefield. In my initial post you will note that I specifically didn't mention troops. I accept the point about fitting an AH engine aboard though. IMHO all AH major assemblies/special tools must be capable of being carried in the BLUH cabin.
The comcept of BLUH carrying around fuel/ammunition for the AH is another red herring. Lets remember that a FARP containing two AH arming and refuelling points needs 4 DROPs to just carry the ammo! Lots of SH is the only way to do that so a flown in FARP will be a major Bde op (BTW SH are now integral to 16 Bde so that removes that problem).
3. Agree with you on the current sight. Important to note that I'm not talking about recce in the sense of a tactical op requiring aviation fieldcraft, etc but as a fly ahead with FARP/FOB Comd, etc , check out a few locations, walk the ground, decide on its suitability, etc. Therefore there is no real requirement for a sight. Under no circumstances do I envisage BLUH being used as an AOP aircraft.
4. Almost certainly it wouldn't be possible to fit every aircraft with the IDM/MFD but hopefully every aircraft would have the loom, etc to allow the boxes to be swapped over (ideally a 10-15 min procedure!). This would alleviate the MAUM weight problem.
5. Important to remember that CSAR is a package starting with AWAC, CAP, CAS, AH for area protection and then at the end an aircraft that actually picks the bloke up. Self defence is important but BLUH isn't going to have to do it all by itself!
Agree with you on the need to improve surviveability/crashworthiness though.

As far as lifting in patrols go it is a task that BLUH will be doing but IMHO it is a secondary task to those outlined above. Ultimately BLUH exists to support the AH and therefore it is those tasks that it must be designed for. Whatever aircraft we have is never going to have enough weight/space to satisfy the Paras so we need to be aware of that. BLUH is not an SH and I don't think we should push it towards being one.

Sumo664

Sorry to disagree with you bonk but there isn't any BLUH doctrine out there - try asking the SO2 LUH at JHC. I should know - I did.
The idea that there is some massive pool of doctrine and knowledge at Wallop, etc ready to support the AH/BLUH when it comes into service is just not correct I'm afraid. Lets not kid ourselves when the only paperwork that currently exists (that isn't marked under construction) is TD Note 36! BTW I think that is dated 1996... Of course if I'm wrong please feel free to direct me as to where it can be found.
You are right there is an SUR but as you yourself point out it was written some time ago. Well before the formation of 16 Bde, JHC, etc and all the lessons that have subsequently been learnt.
I don't know why you feel that these issues shouldn't be discussed in a professional manner - you never know someone in a position of influence might even read this!

Helmut Visorcover

Specualtion through lack of information? A few chaps in shiny suits do not answer the questions.

This is Pprune after all. No dirty washing done here just the usual non clas questions/opinions aired.

Finals4TheOutsideWorld

SUMO664, how the devil are you? Your profile say's that you are from God's Country. The last time I saw you was as you left for a large coloured toilet (colout not named so as not to cause offence) have you escaped? Drop me a line when you get the chance. Ps If you can't work out who I am by my profile just mail anyway and all will be revealed. Like you, I can't be bothered changing my handle just because life has changed.

Vfrpilotpb

Good morning Rotorheads

Well we must be in the realms of super Battleships, we are told today that a RN Lynx in the Gulf was caught up an downed by being rammed up the arse end by the said ship, Can this be true , are our capital ships so fast, or was the pilot hovering to admire his handiwork with the Torp he had allegedly just launched?
Anybody anything else on this

Arkroyal

Try this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1624742.stm

widgeon

must have been an irish kamikaze driving the ship.

Overshoot Kenobi

I'm going to add to this debate purely to put it back on top of the message board list, and because I like to talk and haven't done any recently.
This approach (whilst I've got your attention) reminds me of a book I read as a wee lad called "Grimble". The Grimble of the title was a young boy whose parents went on holiday to Brazil for a month without telling him; just leaving notes all over the house. One of these messages was written in green ink on a Garibaldi biscuit, and read: "Do not eat this biscuit as green ink is bad for you". I just thought I'd share that with you all.

Helmut Visorcover

I don't believe you haven't talked recently overshoot!!!