What are the job prospects for new CPLs? (MERGED)

[birdaman]

I am currently training towards my cpl(h). About 110 hrs module 1 exams complete, and due to problem with work, I will not be able to afford FI rating. Is it worth me even continuing to cpl(h)? Is anyone likely to employ low time cpl?

Hope you can help. Thanks

[mongoose237]

Try Gapan
Certainly in previous years its been undersubscribed for rotary FI scholarships. However, it still leaves the problem of getting to 250 hrs.

Would suggest you edit your last comment; the enthusiasm is admirable but it will rattle a few cages

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

birdaman:

I am currently training towards my cpl(h). About 110 hrs module 1 exams complete, and due to problem with work, I will not be able to afford FI rating. Is it worth me even continuing to cpl(h)? Is anyone likely to employ low time cpl? Am willing to work part time for next to nothing in order to get my hours up.

And once again we are reminded...as if we needed reminding...why helicopter pilots will NEVER be paid a decent salary. As long as there are those who will do for free what we do for money, then we who have experience and longevity will be eternally looking over our shoulders for our replacements. "Birdaman" will one day be in a position where he has experience, and he will no doubt react indignantly when the *next* young, "I'll-fly-for-free" wannabe shows up expecting help. But you cannot tell him this now, as all he wants to do is fly.

For free.

And so it goes.

Go piss up a rope, birdaman.

[TiPwEiGhT]

It is always worth trying the North Sea operators. Several guys I know have recently picked up jobs with CHC Scotia and Bond, some with IR others without. All of them are pretty low hours, two of them got jobs within 2 weeks of passing their skill test.

Certainly would't do any harm in giving them a shout and seeing what they say. An FI(H) Rating does certainly help for building up hours and experience.

TiP

[WHK4]

Hi birdaman.

I wish you all the best with your career.

I see you edited out the one bit of your post which mongoose suggested you do. Not, unfortunately, quick enough, since Prune Fan#1 saw it first and reprinted it. Don't let his comments rattle you. (But don't discount the points he raises.)

I agree with zxcvbn that flight instructor work is one good option. It may be worth concentrating on the finances to acheive it.You will always have the rating and it may give you the edge later on as well.

Cheers

WHK4

[birdaman]

Thanks guys. Im sorry for that. Im sure you all understand my desperation. I understand your point and will think more carefully in future.

[well_slung]

Low time pilot

I don't get this idea that everyone with low hours must become an instructor to get a start in this industry. Should an instructor not be someone who has been there and done that, with much experience and knowledge to impart? What good is a teacher who knows marginally more than the student?

There certainly ARE opportunities out there for low time pilots. You may need to be persistant and do things other than flying for a while but if you are keen enough, you will get a start. Go sweep hangars, wash aircraft, help the LAME, make coffee, smoke the boss, whatever it takes!

Look for tourist operators with piston aircraft, ring them all then go visit. Life might be tough for a while, if you need luxury and a high disposable income, get a job in IT or the building industry.

Good luck and stick at it, if you want it, you can have it.

[mongoose237]

Hangar ratting is not really a viable option into the European industry like it is in Australia; the set ups are fundamentally different. In the UK the majority of flying falls into one of two categories: teaching and charter work. The charter work itself is largely conducted on twin-engined helicopters owing to the congestion of the UK combined with JAR regulations, or at the very least in single turbines / R44's. There is very little aerial work in light pistons to cut your teeth on, and "joy flights" frequently go under the guise of a trial lesson to negate the need for an AOC, but therefore require an instructor's rating.

As for instructing, experience is invaluable. But being able to teach, convey information in a dynamic and enjoyable way so they will retain that information, is an artform all of its own. Hours of longline and ag spraying will make you a fine pilot, but that doesn't necessarily mean pilots without those particular skills will be unable to teach the basics of flying. There is a lot to be said for enthusiasm in the learning environment, which new instructors are generally full of.

A fresh JAR instructor will have around 300 hours, along with a very thorough instructor's course under their belt. They will be more than competent to teach the fundamentals of flight to PPL level, along with the endless stream of trial lessons! This is the bread-and-butter of flying schools. The restriction imposed on them will ensure that they are adequately supervised. Later on, they may then progress onto teaching at CPL level.

Low flying is not in the UK PPL syllabus, nor external load, not mountain flying. What is required is the ability to navigate accurately, fly safely, understand the changeable British weather and generally deal with ATC / congested airspace. All of which a well-trained instructor without other industry experience should be able to cope with. Well thats the theory

[funfinn2000]

do some cheap hour building in USA

Birdaman , it's too expensive back in the UK . so do what i did i came over to build flight time in USA , it's less than half the price ya pay back home . you could almost rent a R44 in
USA for cheaper than a R22 in UK .

[Simon853]

I can't help thinking that suggestions of hangar-ratting isn't much different from the guy asking for low-paid work in the first place. i.e. Is he not devaluing his skill and (to some degree) that of established pilots by offering to make the tea and scrub the helis?

However, and forgive me, why would a new pilot be expected to demand to earn as much as a old jock? In many other industries, high pay comes with experience. Graduate engineers often get paid pittance (and often deserve it mind) after 4 years study. If newbie IT professionals started demanding £40k jobs just to keep the older guys happy they'd never work. (But then I guess I've never seen a network-monkey offer to work for free.)

Sorry if that upsets anyone, I'm not trying to nick anyone's job, (for a while yet anyhow!), just trying to make sense of the opinions.

Si

[jemax]

This working in the states thing is really a load of old tosh, unless you want a nice hol, bit of fun, probably single, want work in that arena of operations and have a chance of getting the appropriate visa.

Factor in accomodation and get yourself properly set up in the UK for vat and income tax and there is very little difference.

For info I passed my FI rating early Dec and started work 2 weeks later with and excellent employer, FI rating is a pretty good route at the moment if you can get yourself there.

Do get out there and talk to lots of people in the UK if thats where you want to work....and there are always deals to be done.

[Toohey29]

Jemax

First congrats on your job - well done

am in the process of learning and wondered where you trained and how much the total bill was to date ?

was your new job working at the school you had just left?

congrat again

T

[jemax]

I trained with a number of different people, I wanted to get experience of how they really operated.

So PPL and CPL was with same person, R44 with someone else and finally I picked the FI training with a third group because it was with the outfit I wanted to work with, I had a long serious discussion with the owner before I committed and now I work there. I also did odd hours of instruction when I was out and about to get a different perspective.

I also Self fly Hired with a few different companies, because again this gives you a good understanding of how they really operate. Well worth 3 or 4 check rides and you have to do the hours anyway.

They all had strengths and weaknesses, so it's really a matter of what works for you. Aircraft availability, location, professionalism were v important. I have to say the price they charge was about the last thing on my list of considerations not because I am wealthy but because other considerations were much more important than £10-£20 difference per hour.

I will happily discuss this further by PM, but I don't want to invite a debate the relative merits of different training organisations. But I am very happy with my decision. .

Ref cost it's difficult to say. I was properly set up financially so an accountant advise ref VAT, income tax and even now Child Tax Credit which I was entitled to. I was lucky and got hooked up with an owner who gave me about 50 hours flying him in his R44.

I had planned it to the pound before hand, but the plan changed, but about £60k plus loss of income would do it. I did set up some other flexible work to help with income.

Hope this helps

[i4iq]

That's funny jemax - when I do the maths, the difference is huge. Cost of living is far lower in the US, as is training. There really is no competition on price or opportunities after training. Sounds to me like you've fared well compared to others. The odds are firmly on the side of the US route. But congratulations on being resourceful and getting on with it!

[jemax]

I guess I was trying to say do what suits you, if you want to go to the States do so and enjoy it, I'd love to. But don't only do it because it's cheap, there are lots of other things to consider.

Also a good accountant (but that's another thread) in the UK will bring your base price in the UK down by 20-30% if you set yourself up right.

Make your choices and enjoy them.

[Toohey29]

Ivor i take it from your post that you did not do a combined FAA/JAA course in the US?

[birdaman]

Thanks again for the advice. Have looked into hour building at HAI and it is much cheaper than the uk.

[Jordan3054]

Originally Posted by ivor the driver

And when I return to the UK I have to "start at the bottom" (even though I will have close to 1,000 hours) and sit the ATPLs and get myself known in the UK market again.

.

Hope this doesnt sound like a stupid question but

Is there a time limit from when you pass your ground exams before passing your CPL flying training?

The reason I ask is, would be possible to sit all ATPL's exams before you go to USA, then when you come back you will have much less work to do?

Thanks

[mongoose237]

36 months from the date you passed your last ATPL theory exam to grant of a CPL(H)

So an option is to distance study whilst still working in your existing job, get the exams out the way, then make the career move. Theory providers do like you to have a PPL before starting, but I do not know if that is a requirement.

[funfinn2000]

Hour building

yes it is cheaper to hour build there but the students come first , you would be better off getting a hold of a smaller school . or if you use your head you can check out the TV/radio pilots who charge $135 per hour in a jetranger . you can go back home with as many hours as you want Turbine too .
Hai is a great school . thought me a lot , but you wo'nt get the time.